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GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

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GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Dave Selby 12 Apr 19:19
  GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Daniel Carrera 12 Apr 19:37
   GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Philippe Rousselot 12 Apr 21:20
  GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP O'Smith 12 Apr 20:45
   GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Paul Tansom 14 Apr 23:25
    GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Malcolm Turnbull 15 Apr 10:00
  GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Dave Selby 13 Apr 08:32
  GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP John Culleton 15 Apr 00:56
   GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Daniel Carrera 15 Apr 01:09
    GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP John Culleton 15 Apr 01:20
     GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Marco Wessel 15 Apr 01:31
     GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP John Culleton 15 Apr 01:34
      GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Marco Wessel 15 Apr 01:47
GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Tom Williams 12 Apr 22:12
GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Olivier Ripoll 15 Apr 11:22
GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP Tom Williams 15 Apr 17:55
Dave Selby
2003-04-12 19:19:37 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

I have a web site almost written, a lot of GIFs in it, cant use PNGs because IE does not recognise PNG transparencies. GIFs made by GIMP techniacally illegal.

Can anyone recommend a cheap windows program that is legal to produce GIFs so I can load my GIMP GIFs into it and save from it in nice legal format ?

Somehow I dont want to pay £500 for photoshop !

Dave

Daniel Carrera
2003-04-12 19:37:56 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

I think that for now Unisys has said that anyone can make GIFs for NON-COMMERCIAL use. Is your website commercial?

I'm not aware of any such package.

I'm not familiar with IE. Does it noe understand PNG transparency at all? I thought that the newer versions understood PNG transparency, but only the GIF-style on-off transparency; not the full alpha channel.

Check your version of IE. Try again using only either fully-transparent of fully-opaque pixels. Try making it an indexed PNG.

As I said, I don't use IE, so I don't know if any of these would help (but I *have* heard that later versions of IE do PNGs okay).

I hope this helps, Daniel.

On Sat, Apr 12, 2003 at 06:19:37PM +0100, Dave Selby wrote:

I have a web site almost written, a lot of GIFs in it, cant use PNGs because IE does not recognise PNG transparencies. GIFs made by GIMP techniacally illegal.

Can anyone recommend a cheap windows program that is legal to produce GIFs so I can load my GIMP GIFs into it and save from it in nice legal format ?

Somehow I dont want to pay £500 for photoshop !

Dave _______________________________________________ Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user

O'Smith
2003-04-12 20:45:29 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

On Saturday 12 April 2003 01:19 pm, Dave Selby wrote:

I have a web site almost written, a lot of GIFs in it, cant use PNGs because IE does not recognise PNG transparencies. GIFs made by GIMP techniacally illegal.

Can anyone recommend a cheap windows program that is legal to produce GIFs so I can load my GIMP GIFs into it and save from it in nice legal format ?

Somehow I dont want to pay £500 for photoshop !

Dave

=======================

Dave, Certainly you would be better off to use png files as they are a much better format than gif. No matter what you produce a GIF with on any platform now, they are subject to a royality charge by Unisys. As Daniel mentioned about non-commercial use, that is the information I have heard too, but why take the chance?

IE should be able to view PNG files now as most modern browsers can. You could always add a note to your site: "Best viewed with anything but IE" and maybe get a message across to users of the inferior browser! ;o)

Bottom line is that any GIF file, no matter how it is produced, is subject to royality fees.

Patrick

Philippe Rousselot
2003-04-12 21:20:10 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

concerning the licence for GIF, I thought it was the transaction of the GIF images that was subordinate to it, not the display

Le Samedi 12 Avril 2003 19:37, Daniel Carrera a écrit :

I'm not familiar with IE. Does it noe understand PNG transparency at all?

yes it does if you put hte right code, but then it is not visible by NT or any other browser. but here is a turn around

1. get sniffer from www.appcreator.com 2. add in head something like
browser == 'Netscape' && $snif->major browser == 'Netscape' && $snif->major > '4') {
echo"

this will allow you to select tha appropriate css file according to the browser

3. dans body use this to see alpha chanel with IE

or this for gif or if you do not care about alpha chanel

and this for NT

in css for IE add #headnt {
visibility:hidden;
}
#headwin {
whatever you use
}

in css for NT add
#headnt {
whatever you use
}
#headwin {
visibility:hidden;
}

and do this for any type of browser if you want to do it properly

note however that most browser, I mean by that the old one that represent the majority of the one still in use, do not support css very well if at all. you will have to experiment a lot.

I did not invent anything here, there is a lot of articles on the net related to these techniques, that I am sure are more precise.

cheers

Tom Williams
2003-04-12 22:12:55 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

O'Smith wrote:

IE should be able to view PNG files now as most modern browsers can. You could always add a note to your site: "Best viewed with anything but IE" and maybe get a message across to users of the inferior browser! ;o)

PNGs can be viewed but some still won't display properly and some won't display at all.

Some info on the status of PNG support in IE can be found here:

http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pngapbr.html#msie-win-unix

We recently had a discussion about PNG and IE on the gimpwin-users mailing list. :)

Peace...

Tom

Dave Selby
2003-04-13 08:32:20 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

On Saturday 12 April 2003 18:19, you wrote:

I have a web site almost written, a lot of GIFs in it, cant use PNGs because IE does not recognize PNG transparencies. GIFs made by GIMP technically illegal.

Can anyone recommend a cheap windows program that is legal to produce GIFs so I can load my GIMP GIFs into it and save from it in nice legal format ?

Somehow I don't want to pay £500 for photoshop !

Dave

Paul Tansom
2003-04-14 23:25:54 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

** O'Smith [2003-04-12 19:47]:

Certainly you would be better off to use png files as they are a much better format than gif. No matter what you produce a GIF with on any platform now, they are subject to a royality charge by Unisys. As Daniel mentioned about non-commercial use, that is the information I have heard too, but why take the chance?

IE should be able to view PNG files now as most modern browsers can. You could always add a note to your site: "Best viewed with anything but IE" and maybe get a message across to users of the inferior browser! ;o)

Bottom line is that any GIF file, no matter how it is produced, is subject to royality fees.

** end quote [O'Smith]

Run that by me again please, preferably with a URL (I'm off to check it out on Google now too). My understanding was that it was the code used to produce the GIFs (in terms of the compression algorithm) that was subject to royalties. Hence if you created an image in an app that had licensed the necessary bits you could produce and use GIFs wherever you liked - browsers tend to have support in them. Gimp doesn't support GIFs because it doesn't license the means to produce them. What you seem to be saying is that once you've produced them you have to pay a license to use them on your web site too - or am I miss reading that?

I can't say as I use GIFs anyway, but I have noted a few on one site that are from other sources (the W3C ones for example) and you've made me wonder whether I should be converting them!

John Culleton
2003-04-15 00:56:25 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

On Saturday 12 April 2003 01:19 pm, Dave Selby wrote:

I have a web site almost written, a lot of GIFs in it, cant use PNGs because IE does not recognise PNG transparencies. GIFs made by GIMP techniacally illegal.

Can anyone recommend a cheap windows program that is legal to produce GIFs so I can load my GIMP GIFs into it and save from it in nice legal format ?

Somehow I dont want to pay £500 for photoshop !

Dave

What's wrong with Gimp? Load the GIF image and save it as jpeg. Probably you could write a script for it (I don't do scripts so I'm guessing.)

Also htere is ImageMagick,which is free and runs on Windoze as well as more adult operating systems. Visit: http://www.imagemagick,org.

Problem solved :-)

John Culleton

Daniel Carrera
2003-04-15 01:09:17 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

Can anyone recommend a cheap windows program that is legal to produce GIFs so I can load my GIMP GIFs into it and save from it in nice legal format ?

Somehow I dont want to pay £500 for photoshop !

What's wrong with Gimp? Load the GIF image and save it as jpeg. Probably you could write a script for it (I don't do scripts so I'm guessing.)

Also htere is ImageMagick,which is free and runs on Windoze as well as more adult operating systems. Visit: http://www.imagemagick,org.

Problem solved :-)

The problem is not in GIMP's abilities, but in the legal issues surrounding GIFs due to the Unysis patent. Dave knows this, and he was asking about a program that could produce GIFs legally for commercial use.

GIMP is not the solution for Dave's problem (though PNG might be). GIMP cannot be used to make GIFs for commercial use legally because the distribution of GIMP does not include the royalty that you have to pay to Unysis. With GIMP you can only make legal GIFs for NON-commercial use.

By definition, a free program will not do for commercial GIFs.

Also, please don't call it "Windoze". That's not its name. I don't like that operating system either, but I still refer to it by its due name.

John Culleton
2003-04-15 01:20:58 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

On Monday 14 April 2003 07:09 pm, Daniel Carrera wrote:

Can anyone recommend a cheap windows program that is legal to produce GIFs so I can load my GIMP GIFs into it and save from it in nice legal format ?

Somehow I dont want to pay £500 for photoshop !

What's wrong with Gimp? Load the GIF image and save it as jpeg. Probably you could write a script for it (I don't do scripts so I'm guessing.)

Also there is ImageMagick,which is free and runs on Windoze as well as more adult operating systems. Visit: http://www.imagemagick,org.

Problem solved :-)

The problem is not in GIMP's abilities, but in the legal issues surrounding GIFs due to the Unysis patent. Dave knows this, and he was asking about a program that could produce GIFs legally for commercial use.
By definition, a free program will not do for commercial GIFs.

If you reread my post I was suggesting that he save his gifs as jpegs. There could be a problem with transparency however.

Also, please don't call it "Windoze". That's not its name. I don't like that operating system either, but I still refer to it by its due name.

Oh lets not be stuffy. Picking on Micro$oft is an old tradition on the internet
and about as harmless as a little boy sticking his tongue out at a speeding locomotive. And I do note that the product that allegedly can't handle PGM graphics is indeed from the same company.

John Culleton John C.

Marco Wessel
2003-04-15 01:31:06 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, John Culleton wrote:

By definition, a free program will not do for commercial GIFs.

If you reread my post I was suggesting that he save his gifs as jpegs. There could be a problem with transparency however.

That, and JPEG simply wasn't meant for it. JPEG is for photographs - nothing else.

Also, please don't call it "Windoze". That's not its name. I don't like that operating system either, but I still refer to it by its due name.

Oh lets not be stuffy. Picking on Micro$oft is an old tradition on the internet
and about as harmless as a little boy sticking his tongue out at a speeding locomotive. And I do note that the product that allegedly can't handle PGM graphics is indeed from the same company.

And the name is Microsoft there. It may be harmless, but it's also quite lame. PGM isn't used at all on Windows, I think. It's more of a UNIX thing iirc.

Regards,

Marco Wessel

John Culleton
2003-04-15 01:34:58 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

On Monday 14 April 2003 07:20 pm, John Culleton wrote:

O> and about as harmless as a little boy sticking his tongue out at a

speeding

locomotive. And I do note that the product that allegedly can't handle PGM graphics is indeed from the same company.

I meant png not pgm of course.

John c.

Marco Wessel
2003-04-15 01:47:08 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, John Culleton wrote:

On Monday 14 April 2003 07:20 pm, John Culleton wrote:

O> and about as harmless as a little boy sticking his tongue out at a

speeding

locomotive. And I do note that the product that allegedly can't handle PGM graphics is indeed from the same company.

I meant png not pgm of course.

John c.

Right. IE handles pngs. It just doesn't handle them as well as it should. IE does lots of other things wrong too, so why single out bad PNG support?

IE for Mac OS X supports PNG fully btw. Alpha channel and all.

I'm as much against Microsoft as the next Enlightened One(tm), but I'm starting to get tired of people the same arguments over and over again.

Marco

Malcolm Turnbull
2003-04-15 10:00:04 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

Paul et al.

The patent is only on the compression algorithm used in the creation of GIFs, using them is fine.

BTW, hasn't the patent just expired (their was a story on Slashdot recently about it ) ? Shouldn't someone check 'cause if so the code could be included in GIMP which would make a lot of people happy.

Ps. I still haven't figured out how PhotoShop can create a transparent PNG (that works in IE) and GIMP can't.. GIMP registers the background colour which only gives you GIF like transparency in IE.

Pps. The reply-to address on this list is not the list its the person who sent the mail...

Paul Tansom wrote:

** O'Smith [2003-04-12 19:47]:

Certainly you would be better off to use png files as they are a much better format than gif. No matter what you produce a GIF with on any platform now, they are subject to a royality charge by Unisys. As Daniel mentioned about non-commercial use, that is the information I have heard too, but why take the chance?

IE should be able to view PNG files now as most modern browsers can. You could always add a note to your site: "Best viewed with anything but IE" and maybe get a message across to users of the inferior browser! ;o)

Bottom line is that any GIF file, no matter how it is produced, is subject to royality fees.

** end quote [O'Smith]

Run that by me again please, preferably with a URL (I'm off to check it out on Google now too). My understanding was that it was the code used to produce the GIFs (in terms of the compression algorithm) that was subject to royalties. Hence if you created an image in an app that had licensed the necessary bits you could produce and use GIFs wherever you liked - browsers tend to have support in them. Gimp doesn't support GIFs because it doesn't license the means to produce them. What you seem to be saying is that once you've produced them you have to pay a license to use them on your web site too - or am I miss reading that?

I can't say as I use GIFs anyway, but I have noted a few on one site that are from other sources (the W3C ones for example) and you've made me wonder whether I should be converting them!

Olivier Ripoll
2003-04-15 11:22:16 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

Malcolm Turnbull wrote:

Paul et al.

The patent is only on the compression algorithm used in the creation of GIFs, using them is fine.

BTW, hasn't the patent just expired (their was a story on Slashdot recently about it ) ? Shouldn't someone check 'cause if so the code could be included in GIMP which would make a lot of people happy.

Ps. I still haven't figured out how PhotoShop can create a transparent PNG (that works in IE) and GIMP can't.. GIMP registers the background colour which only gives you GIF like transparency in IE.

This is easy to understand: it is not transparency, it is vacuum.

Light is characterised by both an intensity and a wavefront.

- "transparent" refers to the property of a something (a medium) that lets the light goes through it without modifying the wavefront too much. the image of the object is not distorted, although it can be attenuated, or colored. You will say a window is transparent, even if it is made of coloured glass, or is dirty and lets only half of the light pass.

- "translucent" refers to a medium that modifies this wavefront, thus distorts the image of the object. The glass used in the bathrooms windows is translucent. You can see light passing through, but cannot see the object casting light.
The case of translucency is however not in the scope of the discussion here.

Would you qualify a hole in a wall of "transparent"? Of course not. A windows is transparent, but the door hole/frame is not. "transarent" qualifies something, a medium, with essence.

GIF has no transparency. GIF can have "holes", "absence", "vacuum". In other words, "binary (full/none) transparency" is not transparency.

PNG handles transparency very well. However, IE, without an horrible trick, cannot handle it.
PNG also has many other features, like gamma correction and this erroneously called "binary transparency" which is actually a "hole". Photoshop actually uses this. Gimp can also do it very well. Convert you image to indexed before saving it as a PNG and the result will be the same as with Photoshop. A use of the semi-flatten plugin will improve the result if you know your aimed background colour.

If you still think PS does something gimp cannot, try the following: take a PNG made by PS, and use it with the following backgrounds: white, black, red, blue, colourfull and contrsted image. Does the result look good? no. Because it is not transparency.

Regards,

Olivier.

Tom Williams
2003-04-15 17:55:30 UTC (over 17 years ago)

GIFs GIMP PHOTOSHOP

Olivier Ripoll wrote:

PNG handles transparency very well. However, IE, without an horrible trick, cannot handle it.
PNG also has many other features, like gamma correction and this erroneously called "binary transparency" which is actually a "hole". Photoshop actually uses this. Gimp can also do it very well. Convert you image to indexed before saving it as a PNG and the result will be the same as with Photoshop. A use of the semi-flatten plugin will improve the result if you know your aimed background colour.

Thanks for the info. I actually tried this. I took the .XCF version of a PNG I created and converted the image to indexed before saving it as a PNG to see what would happen. When I converted the image to indexed, I chose NO dithering to help preserve as much of the "vibrance"of the image (text logo) as possible and chose one of the Web pallettes (gimp 1.2.3 on Linux) and it still didn't look very much like the PNG at all.

Is it possible to achieve the "rich" colors of a PNG with an indexed image?

I can send you the .XCF file if you want to see what I'm working with.

Peace...

Tom