So what exactly does this do? Does it lock GIMP 2.6 onto your machine and not allow you to upgrade to 2.8, or what?

Sorry, I'm mainly a Windows user :P

Sent from my iPod

On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:10 PM, Dirk wrote:

Hello,

it has now been months that Gimp developers seem to have decided that their "product vision" in Gimp2.8 (debian/unstable) is more relevant than the workflow of their users.

People who use Gimp *a lot* keep clicking "Save as" instead of "Export" because that is what they're used to. Because it is natural.

If you think that it is trivial to make that workflow mistake over and over - then you are a casual Gimp user and can stop reading.

If you use Google and search for "export save gimp" you can witness what happens when marketing takes over the development.

There seems to be this product-vision-apologetics that they can ignore their users because they are not getting paid by them anyway. Old user will just be replaced by new users. Nobody will notice that transition except in the feedback, which isn't monetary but just a few angry posts in the internet.

Since Debian (like all other distributions) will have to (or has to) update to Gimp2.8 in the stable branch I dedicated a chroot jail to Gimp2.6 and will explain here how you can do it yourself.

Creating a chroot jail for a single application is very easy.

# the directory in which the chroot jail will exist mkdir chroot_gimp2.6
# run debootstrap it will install a minimal debian and gimp2.6 # this will take a while
debootstrap --variant=minbase --include=gimp squeeze chroot_gimp2.6 ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian # run gimp from inside the chroot jail chroot chroot_gimp2.6 gimp

Enjoy Gimp2.6 and the workflow you are used to.

No further updates/changes of your Distribution will take Gimp2.6 workflow away from you.

This will be reposted for your convenience when debian/stable switches to Gimp2.8.

Dirk _______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
List address: gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 10:35 PM, Kasim Ahmic wrote:

So what exactly does this do? Does it lock GIMP 2.6 onto your machine and not allow you to upgrade to 2.8, or what?

Chroot allows running an operating system within an operating system, in an isolated environment. Typically this is done for security reasons.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org

Ahh I see. So would this allow the user to have two version of GIMP installed?

Anyway, if the save vs. export thing causes such a problem, then people could just install a plugin that removes the new functionality and restores the old one. That way, your workflow isn't affected and you get all the new features of 2.8.

Sent from my iPod

On Jul 28, 2013, at 2:49 PM, Dirk wrote:

chroot changes the root directory for the process (in this case Gimp) from "/" to another path.

debootstrap installs a minimal linux and Gimp 2.6 into that new root path. So you are running a distribution inside a distribution. But it is not like a VM because no hardware is emulated.

The distribution installed in the chroot jail won't be influenced by updates/changes of the distribution that is not in the chroot jail. So you will end up having Gimp 2.6 forever.

Dirk

On 07/28/13 20:35, Kasim Ahmic wrote:

So what exactly does this do? Does it lock GIMP 2.6 onto your machine and not allow you to upgrade to 2.8, or what?

Sorry, I'm mainly a Windows user :P

Sent from my iPod

On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:10 PM, Dirk wrote:

Hello,

it has now been months that Gimp developers seem to have decided that their "product vision" in Gimp2.8 (debian/unstable) is more relevant than the workflow of their users.

People who use Gimp *a lot* keep clicking "Save as" instead of "Export" because that is what they're used to. Because it is natural.

If you think that it is trivial to make that workflow mistake over and over - then you are a casual Gimp user and can stop reading.

If you use Google and search for "export save gimp" you can witness what happens when marketing takes over the development.

There seems to be this product-vision-apologetics that they can ignore their users because they are not getting paid by them anyway. Old user will just be replaced by new users. Nobody will notice that transition except in the feedback, which isn't monetary but just a few angry posts in the internet.

Since Debian (like all other distributions) will have to (or has to) update to Gimp2.8 in the stable branch I dedicated a chroot jail to Gimp2.6 and will explain here how you can do it yourself.

Creating a chroot jail for a single application is very easy.

# the directory in which the chroot jail will exist mkdir chroot_gimp2.6
# run debootstrap it will install a minimal debian and gimp2.6 # this will take a while
debootstrap --variant=minbase --include=gimp squeeze chroot_gimp2.6 ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian # run gimp from inside the chroot jail chroot chroot_gimp2.6 gimp

Enjoy Gimp2.6 and the workflow you are used to.

No further updates/changes of your Distribution will take Gimp2.6 workflow away from you.

This will be reposted for your convenience when debian/stable switches to Gimp2.8.

Dirk _______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
List address: gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

On 07/28/2013 02:58 PM, Kasim Ahmic wrote:

Anyway, if the save vs. export thing causes such a problem, then people could just install a plugin that removes the new functionality and restores the old one. That way, your workflow isn't affected and you get all the new features of 2.8.

go ahead, make my day, tell me how to add that functionality back..

Paul Cartwright

Paul Cartwright wrote,

On 07/28/2013 02:58 PM, Kasim Ahmic wrote:

Anyway, if the save vs. export thing causes such a problem, then people could just install a plugin that removes the new functionality and restores the old one. That way, your workflow isn't affected and you get all the new features of 2.8.

go ahead, make my day, tell me how to add that functionality back..

As posted several times on this list:

http://www.shallowsky.com/software/gimp-save/

Personally, I've never used it.

Bob Long

On 07/29/2013 01:55 AM, Dirk wrote:

Needless to say I /still/ clicked on "Save as..." or "Save".

You *click*? Never learned Ctrl-S or Ctrl-E? (and you can probably redefine the Ctrl-S shortcut to be 'file-export')

* Ofnuts [07-28-13 20:32]:

On 07/29/2013 01:55 AM, Dirk wrote:

Needless to say I /still/ clicked on "Save as..." or "Save".

You *click*? Never learned Ctrl-S or Ctrl-E? (and you can probably redefine the Ctrl-S shortcut to be 'file-export')

Undoubtedly a windoz uzer. Some of us learned to use a computer before there were mize or whatever...

(paka)Patrick Shanahan       Plainfield, Indiana, USA      HOG # US1244711
http://wahoo.no-ip.org        Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
http://en.opensuse.org                           openSUSE Community Member
Registered Linux User #207535                    @ http://linuxcounter.net

On 07/28/2013 08:31 PM, Ofnuts wrote:

On 07/29/2013 01:55 AM, Dirk wrote:

Needless to say I /still/ clicked on "Save as..." or "Save".

You *click*? Never learned Ctrl-S or Ctrl-E? (and you can probably redefine the Ctrl-S shortcut to be 'file-export')

I use command keys like CTRL-S, but not sure how to re-define it to save-export-clean..

Paul Cartwright

Paul Cartwright wrote,

On 07/28/2013 08:31 PM, Ofnuts wrote:

On 07/29/2013 01:55 AM, Dirk wrote:

Needless to say I /still/ clicked on "Save as..." or "Save".

You *click*? Never learned Ctrl-S or Ctrl-E? (and you can probably redefine the Ctrl-S shortcut to be 'file-export')

I use command keys like CTRL-S, but not sure how to re-define it to save-export-clean..

See if Edit|Keyboard Shortcuts helps!

Bob Long

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 01:55:16AM +0200, Dirk wrote:

On 07/29/13 00:29, Bob Long wrote:

Paul Cartwright wrote,

On 07/28/2013 02:58 PM, Kasim Ahmic wrote:

Anyway, if the save vs. export thing causes such a problem, then people could just install a plugin that removes the new functionality and restores the old one. That way, your workflow isn't affected and you get all the new features of 2.8.

go ahead, make my day, tell me how to add that functionality back..

As posted several times on this list:

http://www.shallowsky.com/software/gimp-save/

Personally, I've never used it.

I did. It added /another/ menu point called "Save-export" or so and acts like "Save" used to do, after the image was exported once.

Needless to say I /still/ clicked on "Save as..." or "Save".

So it really did nothing for me except making the menu a little more confusing.

The whole situation boils down to the lack of character that is necessary for admitting a mistake and reversing this change in the workflow.

It's a mistake only in the eyes of a vocal few, who never have used GIMP in a professional work-flow. It's not a huge change, so either adapt, change to a simpler editor, or get used to it. Staying with one version forever pretty much indicates that you're not using for complicated editing. So, GIMP probably isn't for you.

You posted this on the Debian-user list too I see.

Cheers,
Stephen, Toronto
My Google+ Profile | http://goo.gl/JbQsq

Dirk writes:

The whole situation boils down to the lack of character that is necessary for admitting a mistake and reversing this change in the workflow.

There's much to be said for the new behaviour. It would be better if Ctrl-E just used the filename and properties from the imported file. The first time it may even show a "File exists, overwrite" dialog. Currently, Ctrl-E and Shift-Ctrl-E open the same export dialog, which is a waste.

-- Johan

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Dirk wrote:

Needless to say I /still/ clicked on "Save as..." or "Save".

Just use Ctrl+S. It's handy.

The whole situation boils down to the lack of character that is necessary for admitting a mistake and reversing this change in the workflow.

You won't get anywhere by repeating that, and there's about 1K of people you are probably annoying with this right now. Try thinking beyond your own interests.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 07/28/2013 09:42 PM, Bob Long wrote:

I use command keys like CTRL-S, but not sure how to re-define it to

save-export-clean..

See if Edit|Keyboard Shortcuts helps!

thank you!

Paul Cartwright

From: jvromans@squirrel.nl
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:21:40 +0200 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] SOLVED: export vs. save menu in gimp2.8 - simple and lasting solution

Dirk writes:

There's much to be said for the new behaviour. It would be better if Ctrl-E just used the filename and properties from the imported file. The first time it may even show a "File exists, overwrite" dialog. Currently, Ctrl-E and Shift-Ctrl-E open the same export dialog, which is a waste.

-- Johan
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
List address: gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Y'know, I cannot think of any situation in my personal workflow where Ctrl+E versus Ctrl+Shift+E creates a tangible difference in behavior.

This is a problem.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Richard Gitschlag writes:

There's much to be said for the new behaviour. It would be better if Ctrl-E just used the filename and properties from the imported file. The first time it may even show a "File exists, overwrite" dialog. Currently, Ctrl-E and Shift-Ctrl-E open the same export dialog, which is a waste.

Y'know, I cannot think of any situation in my personal workflow where Ctrl+E versus Ctrl+Shift+E creates a tangible difference in behavior.

Well...

gimp image.jpg
make some changes
Shift-Ctrl-E
Enter
Enter
Enter

Compare this to:

gimp image.jpg make some changes
Ctrl-E
Enter
Enter
Enter

Spot the difference? Right, there's none.

For simple editing, it would be beneficial if the latter were:

gimp image.jpg make some changes
Ctrl-E
Enter

-- Johan

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 6:29 AM, Stephen Allen wrote:

It's a mistake only in the eyes of a vocal few, who never have used GIMP in a professional work-flow. It's not a huge change, so either adapt, change to a simpler editor, or get used to it. Staying with one version forever pretty much indicates that you're not using for complicated editing. So, GIMP probably isn't for you.

You posted this on the Debian-user list too I see.

What, the amazing
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/04/msg00265.html thread is back? Oh, Dirk :)

OTOH, thanks for posting the chroot howto. Sounds like future FAQ material.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

El 29/07/2013 20:27, "Alexandre Prokoudine" escribi:

What, the amazing
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/04/msg00265.html thread is back? Oh, Dirk :)

Looking at that link maybe Microsoft didn't hire that people. Probably they just exported them from their staff to save resources (sorry for the offtopic...).

On Mon, 2013-07-29 at 08:49 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Y'know, I cannot think of any situation in my personal workflow where Ctrl+E versus Ctrl+Shift+E creates a tangible difference in behavior.

as with control-s and control-S, there's no difference the first time, only on subsequent times: control-shift-s (save as) and control-shift-e (export as) will prompt for a filename each time, whereas control-s and control-e will only prompt the first time, and not at all in the case of control-s where you opened an xcf file.

control-e prompts even the first time because overwriting your input jpeg file can cause data loss that can't be restored by undoing all changes to the start of the session and then overwriting the file. It's also because control-e and control-shift-e were used in previous versions of gimp for changing the window size to fit the image and changing the image zoom to fit the window, respectively, so many users would press them out of habit and risked suddenly overwriting a file. I think I was the first to request that change, when I accidentally destroyed a jpeg image from a photo shoot.

So yes, there are differences, or at least there are supposed to be differences, between ^e and ^E, as with ^s and ^S, and yes, the developers do listen to constructive suggestions and do change the code.

Best,

Liam

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] SOLVED: export vs. save menu in gimp2.8 - simple and lasting solution From: liam@holoweb.net
To: strata_ranger@hotmail.com
CC: jvromans@squirrel.nl; gimp-user-list@gnome.org Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:14:28 -0400

as with control-s and control-S, there's no difference the first time, only on subsequent times: control-shift-s (save as) and control-shift-e (export as) will prompt for a filename each time, whereas control-s and control-e will only prompt the first time, and not at all in the case of control-s where you opened an xcf file.

You might have overlooked one minor (but critical) element about my workflow: I generally only do one image export per GIMP session. So EVERY export is "the first time"....

I did suggest that the export filename/options should be recorded as part of the XCF project data -- what say you to that?

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

On Thu, 2013-08-01 at 06:35 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

You might have overlooked one minor (but critical) element about my workflow: I generally only do one image export per GIMP session. So EVERY export is "the first time"....

Yes, that's true.

I did suggest that the export filename/options should be recorded as part of the XCF project data -- what say you to that?

I think it would be a good idea and probably not difficult, but I doubt any of the core developers are listening to this thread.

Enter it as a request for enhancement (RFE) in bugzilla, and then post to the developer list about it, as a possible enhancement for image export to improve workflow between sessions.

Liam

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

I did suggest that the export filename/options should be recorded as part of the XCF project data -- what say you to that?

I think it would be a good idea

It's what Inkscape does with its own SVG files. Indeed, very useful.

and probably not difficult, but I doubt any of the core developers are listening to this thread.

Try gimp-developer@ or, better, IRC :)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Von: "Liam R E Quin"

Enter it as a request for enhancement (RFE) in bugzilla, and then post to the developer list about it

The other way round, please - first discuss it on the list, and then enter an enhancement request into Bugzilla.

Regards,
Michael

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 9:19 AM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

Enter it as a request for enhancement (RFE) in bugzilla, and then post to the developer list about it

The other way round, please - first discuss it on the list, and then enter an enhancement request into Bugzilla.

But not on this thread ;)

Chris