On 6/22/07, Luis A. Florit wrote:

Thanks for (yet another) (double) stupid answer, Sven.

We are not going to compensate loss of Carol by become rude ourselves are we? Could we possibly take a deep breath, count to 10 and smile friendlier to each other?

Alexandre

Of course you're right, Alexandre.

The point is, again, the constant rudeness in gimp devel list... From aggressive answers, to unanswered mails (not that bad), to ignored bug reports in bugzilla (VERY bad). All this happened to me already.

Anyway, just a question: Why this has been discussed so many times in this list????

I can refer to a previous thread ended in March 23, called 'Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla', where it was discussed how the rudeness here make people to pull out of the GIMP project.

Or the last one about Carol.

I never participated in a list where this was discussed even once. And here it is discussed constantly!

Could this possible be due only because of one Carol? I've never talked with any Carol!

In any case, *MY* rudeness is absolutely unforgivable. My apologies to you, Sven.

Luis.

* El 22/06/07 a las 8:53, Sven Neumann chamullaba:

Hi,

On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 00:18 -0300, Luis A. Florit wrote:

From aggressive answers, to unanswered mails (not that bad),

It would help a lot if you could try to be more precise in your mails. That would avoid the need to ask for details. If a dialog is titled "Save as JPEG", then why do you call it "Save as ..." several times?

Only you seemed not to know, or didn't want to know, where the "Save EXIF data" option is in GIMP. Alex Pounds knew exactly what I was talking about, and understand the same as me by "Save as ..." dialog.

Your message was so imprecise that even experienced GIMP developers could not tell what exactly you are talking about. Several plug-in can save EXIF data and without the information which plug-in you are using, there is not much we can do.

You answered as if no such option never existed, and not as if there were many.

Also, your questions are rather aggressive. It would help a lot if you could try to understand that people are working on this project in their free time.

Of course.

If something breaks in the development version, then this does not happen with the intent of breaking something.

I never said that.
We are all here in our free time, we are all here to try to make GIMP better for others and for us. Not only the developers, but also the ones that bother reporting bugs.

It is also not a personal offense, but your mails make it look like one.

????
I don't understand where you read that.

Look at this for example:

So:

1) Is the EXIF source in the all the 3 cameras (of 3 different brands) broken?
2) Why all the other graphic programs that I use (showfoto, gqview, gthumb, exiftool) always showed the EXIF data with no problem, and still show?
3) Why the "Save EXIF data" option in the "Save as..." dialog is no longer present?
4) Why GIMP deletes the EXIF data now? 5) If broken, why previous versions of GIMP preserve the EXIF data? GIMP 2.3.16 2.3.17 and 2.2.14 still work perfectly for me (in this respect; I had to stop using 2.3.17 because it crashed consistently, probably because of its known bug).

Is this tone in any way helpful? The only thing you can achieve by putting it this way is to demotivate the developer working on this.

Sorry, but I see no aggression in the above quote. I just tried to point to Mukund that this had nothing to do with broken EXIF, giving several arguments for that. To be precise.

BTW, it is interesting to notice that you cut the paragraph that was right before the one you quoted, where I wrote:

: Please excuse me, Mukund, but I will be very surprised : if this has something to do with broken EXIF data.

Do you also think that an argument that begins with "Please excuse me..." is aggressive? Probably not, but for some reason you cut that sentence and took the next out of context. And still, it is not aggressive.
My apologies to Mukund if he felt that.

to ignored bug reports in bugzilla (VERY bad).

Please point me to any ignored bug reports. We take bug reports very seriously and I will not let you get away stating in public that we would ignore bug reports.

My bug report was sent to bugzilla.redhat when Fedora 4 was out. bugzilla.redhat is dead now.

But I sent this email, with subject "still the same bug" on April 30 to this list (Gimp-developer Digest, Vol 56, Issue 1, to be precise):

: However, about a year or two ago, I reported a bug in Bugzilla: : the mouse buttons in GIMP main image window do nothing when I have : attached a my Wacom tablet. ONLY in GIMP. This happened with Fedora : 4,5,6 (fresh installs), with GIMP stable and devel versions. It is : the only program that I have this problem, and the bug is still alive.

And just a quick search in http://bugzilla.gnome.org/ in this precise minute returned this:

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=406440 (2007-02-10) http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449590 (2007-06-20)

So, 3 bugzilla reports of the same bug. 4 months and not a single answer. And still stated as "unconfirmed"! And still we cannot use the mouse in GIMP.

So, yes, I state, publicly, again: this bug has been ignored for months (in fact, for years, since Fedora 4, and we are now in Fedora 7). No matter if you let me 'get away' or not.

BTW, the thread of April 30 mentioned above was because a bug report I made in this list about a shift in the despeckle plugin was unanswered! I sent a second report (also included in the same Digest above):

: Pals,
:
: I reported this bug in this list some time ago, and got no : answer (I think), and the 2.3.16 version still has the same bug: : The despeckle plugin shifts the image one pixel to the right, : and one to the bottom. Consequently, it is essentially useless. : If you draw in the middle of a white background a black cross : like this:
:
: x
: xxx
: x
:
: and run the despeckle plugin with radius 1, you get this asymmetric : output:
:
: x
: xxx
: xx
:
: Thanks,
:
: Luis.

I hope you don't think the 'tone' was aggressive in this mail also... However, and I even received this answer as a gift:

: I suspect it got ignored since one pixel : offset errors are pretty much to be expected.

...an answer that surprised me and several others... I should point out that the author of the claim said after this that he was misunderstood, though.

L.

Hi Sven,

So, yes, I state, publicly, again: this bug has been ignored for months (in fact, for years, since Fedora 4, and we are now in Fedora 7). No matter if you let me 'get away' or not.

These bug reports have not been ignored. They are not GIMP bugs and have been reassigned accordingly. Most likely the bug is not even in GTK+ but on a lower level. The fact that it works for most people makes it likely that it is perhaps even just a misconfigured X server.

Of course, yes, I can be wrong.

Bug GIMP is the only application, graphic or not, that showed this problem, in several years of daily use. The mouse works on every other application perfectly, and always did. And through 3 fresh and complete OS upgrades (Fedora 4,5 and 6) the mouse is still broken in GIMP canvas. Gimp worked fine in Fedora 3 and below. Disabling the eraser (?!) in GIMP make the mouse work.

X config (in particular, xorg.conf) was never changed.

I know no X config could make all this happen. But I can be wrong. I am no expert on this (in anything, in fact).

Someone who if affected by the problem will have to track it down. There is no chance that a core GIMP or GTK+ developer will find the time to debug a problem that he/she cannot reproduce.

Indeed, this is a problem. The same problem that appears with intermittent bugs (the above is not intermittent, though).

: Pals,
:
: I reported this bug in this list some time ago, and got no : answer (I think), and the 2.3.16 version still has the same bug: : The despeckle plugin shifts the image one pixel to the right, : and one to the bottom. Consequently, it is essentially useless. : If you draw in the middle of a white background a black cross : like this:
:
: x
: xxx
: x
:
: and run the despeckle plugin with radius 1, you get this : asymmetric output:
:
: x
: xxx
: xx
:
: Thanks,
:
: Luis.

I hope you don't think the 'tone' was aggressive in this mail also...

Yes, I do think that the tone of this mail was aggressive. You complain that you don't get an answer and you complain that the bug is still there.

Not only there was no complain (but a remark where I even added 'I think'), but I also took the time to resend the same bug in a friendly way, and you call that aggressive!

Clearly, you're going to say the first thing that comes to your mind just to maintain your position. Discussions under these terms are useless.

Interestingly, yesterday someone suggested me in this list to read the page http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html (quite interesting, BTW), where it says:

- Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not - intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the direct, - cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to - people who are more concerned about solving problems than making - others feel warm and fuzzy.

You simply can not demand that a bug is fixed.

Again you insist on changing the words that I wrote. I never demanded anything to be fixed. In fact I never demanded anything.
Just asked for the bug reports not to be ignored.

Please, try to see the point on what I am trying to say...

I do believe that GIMP is a great program, in fact the best OS image editor. Easily. And by using it I know that you all do a great job with it. As you know, I installed the trunk version, so I follow closely its development, and don't mind using devel versions with some sacrifices. Therefore, I know how fast it changes, and that means that there is a lot of work being done to it right now.

So, it was never my intention to criticize any of you as developers.

However, GIMP (as well as many other OS projects) is not the sole result of the developers. Of course you have the biggest part, but GIMP is also the result of the people that makes plugins, or the community that says something about its usability, or... the people that bother reporting bugs.

It is very bad for a reporter to see 'his' bug unanswered and present in several versions after he reported it. What he must do then?
He just stops reporting (as I did with Fedora). And the project and the community loose with that. And, unfortunately, this happens with GIMP. At least this happened with me.

Three times.

Perhaps, as you said, with good reasons: because maintainers are no longer around, or some other reasons. And perhaps you're right, and I am just too impatient (but not aggressive) reporting bugs... Or perhaps gimpdevel is overloaded with bug reports and you are very few to handle all of them.

But I read posts like these before in gimpdevel, and never in the other mailing lists that I've participated. Even the ones with only 1 developer (Cartes du Ciel, Xephem).

The fact is that this is bad for the project. This is bad for YOUR project.

Perhaps, there is no way to improve this...?

I only hope you don't think that everything is just fine as it is.

L.

* El 24/06/07 a las 14:57, Sven Neumann chamullaba:

Bug GIMP is the only application, graphic or not, that showed this problem, in several years of daily use. The mouse works on every other application perfectly, and always did.

Did you actually try it with another GTK+ application that has support for XInput devices?

I don't know of another one but GIMP. Could you please point me such an application for testing?

It is not surprising that applications that don't enable input devices are not affected.

Yes, perhaps...
Observe that what is affected is the mouse, not the tablet, though. And only in GIMP canvas, not in any other GIMP window.

And through 3 fresh and complete OS upgrades (Fedora 4,5 and 6) the mouse is still broken in GIMP canvas. Gimp worked fine in Fedora 3 and below.

For a long time, nothing has changed in GIMP with respect to XInput devices. So the fact that an upgrade introduced this problem seems to be a strong indication that the problem is elsewhere. Perhaps in the X server or, more likely, in the wacom driver. Of course there might also be something that GIMP does wrong. But the vast majority of GIMP users with a tablet doesn't seem to be affected by this problem.

As I said already, someone who is affected by this problem will have to track it down. It is not reproducible for me and, as it seems, for no other GIMP developer.

Yes, I understand the difficulty with this.

Thanks,

L.

Hi Sven,

And yes, there are many bug reports. About five to ten per day. And only a handful of people dealing with them. And still we manage to maintain a pretty stable number of unresolved bugs. We have even managed to cut down this number siginificantly over the last years.

Certainly it is a big and hard work to carry a project like GIMP. And the project deserves all this work.

I understood your point. Hope you understood mine.

If still useful, I will continue reporting (possible) bugs and problems, while trying to be more patient about unanswered stuff.

Thanks,

L.