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Save, Save As and Export separated?

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Save, Save As and Export separated? Paul Naude 20 Aug 08:30
  Save, Save As and Export separated? Alexandre Prokoudine 20 Aug 13:36
   Save, Save As and Export separated? Richard Gitschlag 20 Aug 17:14
  Save, Save As and Export separated? Ken Warner 20 Aug 14:36
   Save, Save As and Export separated? Paul Naude 20 Aug 15:49
    Save, Save As and Export separated? Alexandre Prokoudine 21 Aug 12:35
     Save, Save As and Export separated? Alessia 21 Aug 13:12
      Save, Save As and Export separated? Simon Budig 21 Aug 13:29
       Save, Save As and Export separated? Alessia 21 Aug 13:48
       Save, Save As and Export separated? Richard Gitschlag 21 Aug 15:46
        Save, Save As and Export separated? Simon Budig 21 Aug 16:19
         Save, Save As and Export separated? Richard Gitschlag 23 Aug 16:42
          Save, Save As and Export separated? Simon Budig 24 Aug 08:40
           Save, Save As and Export separated? Richard Gitschlag 24 Aug 16:42
          Save, Save As and Export separated? Rob Antonishen 24 Aug 11:05
      Save, Save As and Export separated? maderios 21 Aug 13:59
      Save, Save As and Export separated? Joao S. O. Bueno 21 Aug 14:05
       Save, Save As and Export separated? Ken Warner 21 Aug 14:16
        Save, Save As and Export separated? Alessia 21 Aug 14:38
       Save, Save As and Export separated? Alessia 21 Aug 14:32
       Save, Save As and Export separated? Richard Gitschlag 21 Aug 15:52
    Save, Save As and Export separated? Ken Warner 21 Aug 13:06
  Save, Save As and Export separated? maderios 20 Aug 14:36
Save, Save As and Export separated? Ken Warner 20 Aug 16:10
  Save, Save As and Export separated? Michael Schumacher 20 Aug 16:24
Paul Naude
2012-08-20 08:30:55 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Hi Gimpers

I only recently upgraded to 2.8 from 2.6 and was wondering if I am the only one missing the option to edit the file extension in the SAVE form which basically allowed you to Save, Save Copy, Save As or Export to any format from the same form?

I also found it strange that if I now open a JPG file (or drag into GIMP), I can't save changes (to the JPG) directly (it wants to save to native Gimp format), so I again first have to go to Export instead!

I am wondering why this was incorporated, and if it's going to stay, is there a setting I can set to work like I am used to (and find much faster and more flexible)?

Regards
Paul

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-20 13:36:30 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Paul Naude wrote:

Hi Gimpers

I only recently upgraded to 2.8 from 2.6 and was wondering if I am the only one missing the option to edit the file extension in the SAVE form which basically allowed you to Save, Save Copy, Save As or Export to any format from the same form?

I also found it strange that if I now open a JPG file (or drag into GIMP), I can't save changes (to the JPG) directly (it wants to save to native Gimp format), so I again first have to go to Export instead!

I am wondering why this was incorporated, and if it's going to stay, is there a setting I can set to work like I am used to (and find much faster and more flexible)?

Hello, Paul!

Welcome: you've reached the sacred land of eternal struggle saving your stuff back to lossy files :)

This is a design decision that cannot be reverted as a user preferences and will not be reverted in code.

Further reading:

http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Vision_briefing http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/gimp-2.8-understanding-ui-changes

Additionally you can spend few days reading just the archives of this very mialing list for the past few months. Just make sure you don't read them aloud or, at least, there are no kids around. Youngsters tend to pick most horrible words.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Ken Warner
2012-08-20 14:36:09 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

You will be told to use other image manipulation software because GIMP is now only for professionals that Save XCF files. And you will be told in no uncertain terms that the decision to make GIMP only save XCF files is well documented (so how can there be any question of the propriety of that design choice) and anyone who expresses dissatisfaction with that design choice is somehow incompetent; demented or otherwise mentally challenged or just plain rude.

On 8/20/2012 1:30 AM, Paul Naude wrote:

Hi Gimpers

I only recently upgraded to 2.8 from 2.6 and was wondering if I am the only one missing the option to edit the file extension in the SAVE form which basically allowed you to Save, Save Copy, Save As or Export to any format from the same form?

I also found it strange that if I now open a JPG file (or drag into GIMP), I can't save changes (to the JPG) directly (it wants to save to native Gimp format), so I again first have to go to Export instead!

I am wondering why this was incorporated, and if it's going to stay, is there a setting I can set to work like I am used to (and find much faster and more flexible)?

Regards
Paul

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

maderios
2012-08-20 14:36:26 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

On 08/20/2012 10:30 AM, Paul Naude wrote:

Hi Gimpers

I only recently upgraded to 2.8 from 2.6 and was wondering if I am the only one missing the option to edit the file extension in the SAVE form which basically allowed you to Save, Save Copy, Save As or Export to any format from the same form?

I also found it strange that if I now open a JPG file (or drag into GIMP), I can't save changes (to the JPG) directly (it wants to save to native Gimp format), so I again first have to go to Export instead!

I am wondering why this was incorporated, and if it's going to stay, is there a setting I can set to work like I am used to (and find much faster and more flexible)?

Hi
Your comment is surprising. Sorry, I joke.... Yes, Gimp has now a strange behaviour concerning save and save as. You may install this plug-in

https://github.com/akkana/gimp-plugins/blob/master/save-export-clean.py

http://www.gimpusers.com/forums/gimp-user/14746-a-plug-in-for-those-who-still-don-t-like-the-new-save-export

It solves the problem, partially.

Greetings

Paul Naude
2012-08-20 15:49:45 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Thanks for the reply Ken

It sounds like you received such a reply once and if that indeed is true, it is very sad, because when we start closing doors to the masses, we are on our way to become isolated and later forgotten, regardless of what great things we might have accomplished. I would hate to one day be a regular user of Microsoft PaintPro*!

*my own name for a possibly beefed up MS Paint or a very old GIMP version ;-)

Paul

Ken Warner
2012-08-20 16:10:56 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Like I said....

On 8/20/2012 9:04 AM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 20.08.2012 16:36, Ken Warner wrote:

You will be told to use other image manipulation software because GIMP is now only for professionals that Save XCF files. And you will be told in no uncertain terms that the decision to make GIMP only save XCF files is well documented (so how can there be any question of the propriety of that design choice) and anyone who expresses dissatisfaction with that design choice is somehow incompetent; demented or otherwise mentally challenged or just plain rude.

There are two ways to participate in the GIMP mailing lists:

a) constructively b) not

It seems like you have chosen option b), please consider to leave the list.

P.S. this mail has been sent in private on purpose, to limit the amount of off-topic content on the list.

Michael Schumacher
2012-08-20 16:24:02 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

On 20.08.2012 18:10, Ken Warner wrote:

You will be told to use other image manipulation software because GIMP is now only for professionals that Save XCF files. And you will be told in no uncertain terms that the decision to make GIMP only save XCF files is well documented (so how can there be any question of the propriety of that design choice) and anyone who expresses dissatisfaction with that design choice is somehow incompetent; demented or otherwise mentally challenged or just plain rude.

Ok, so now Ken has chosen to make my private mail public. I tred to spare the list another trail of off-topic content, but apparently this is not possible.

My opinion:

Messages like Ken's do not contribute constructively to the save and export change, especially the part where claims are made regarding a message recipient's state of mind.

I tried to base my mail solely on the mail I was replying to, which is merely an attempt to win newcomers to one side of the argument without any constructive criticism an the part of its author.

I don't see my mail as an example for the messages Ken is referring to in his original message.

Richard Gitschlag
2012-08-20 17:14:55 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Alex, that is one of the most concise and civil replies in not just this latest thread, but possibly the whole debate debacle. You should consider making that a stock e-mail :)

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:36:30 +0400 From: alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Paul Naude wrote:

Hi Gimpers

I only recently upgraded to 2.8 from 2.6 and was wondering if I am the only one missing the option to edit the file extension in the SAVE form which basically allowed you to Save, Save Copy, Save As or Export to any format from the same form?

I also found it strange that if I now open a JPG file (or drag into GIMP), I can't save changes (to the JPG) directly (it wants to save to native Gimp format), so I again first have to go to Export instead!

I am wondering why this was incorporated, and if it's going to stay, is there a setting I can set to work like I am used to (and find much faster and more flexible)?

Hello, Paul!

Welcome: you've reached the sacred land of eternal struggle saving your stuff back to lossy files :)

This is a design decision that cannot be reverted as a user preferences and will not be reverted in code.

Further reading:

http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Vision_briefing http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/gimp-2.8-understanding-ui-changes

Additionally you can spend few days reading just the archives of this very mialing list for the past few months. Just make sure you don't read them aloud or, at least, there are no kids around. Youngsters tend to pick most horrible words.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

-- Stratadrake
strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-21 12:35:12 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Paul Naude wrote:

Thanks for the reply Ken

It sounds like you received such a reply once and if that indeed is true, it is very sad, because when we start closing doors to the masses, we are on our way to become isolated and later forgotten, regardless of what great things we might have accomplished.

Paul,

As for "closing doors to the masses", here is an example. I'm in the process of interviewing a free software developer who does software, where each release is downloaded like 400 times. Around the globe. And there are, like, 2 releases a year.

Yet the guy has his own little grateful community and is more than happy to interact with it.

So here is something I'd like you to understand: the point is not about trying to make everyone happy. The point is to work for a target audience and make the right tool for it, while having lots of fun, because you are interacting with people who understand your decisions and speak same language as yours.

You can see it as alienation. Well, _I_ see it as a chance for other developers to create new / improve existing editors that would appeal to a wider audience that didn't agree with the direction we've chosen.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Ken Warner
2012-08-21 13:06:12 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

I just summarized the common responses to concerns about the Save/Export redesign.

Personally, I'll be sticking with 2.6 until the current crop of developers move on to some more rewarding tasks and are replaced by more agile and reasonable people.

On 8/20/2012 8:49 AM, Paul Naude wrote:

Thanks for the reply Ken

It sounds like you received such a reply once and if that indeed is true, it is very sad, because when we start closing doors to the masses, we are on our way to become isolated and later forgotten, regardless of what great things we might have accomplished. I would hate to one day be a regular user of Microsoft PaintPro*!

*my own name for a possibly beefed up MS Paint or a very old GIMP version ;-)

Paul

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Alessia
2012-08-21 13:12:39 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Alexandre Prokoudine ha scritto:

Paul,

As for "closing doors to the masses", here is an example. I'm in the process of interviewing a free software developer who does software, where each release is downloaded like 400 times. Around the globe. And there are, like, 2 releases a year.

Yet the guy has his own little grateful community and is more than happy to interact with it.

So here is something I'd like you to understand: the point is not about trying to make everyone happy. The point is to work for a target audience and make the right tool for it, while having lots of fun, because you are interacting with people who understand your decisions and speak same language as yours.

You can see it as alienation. Well, _I_ see it as a chance for other developers to create new / improve existing editors that would appeal to a wider audience that didn't agree with the direction we've chosen.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Sorry if I jump in the discussion so out of nowhere ( I'm currently reading it because I use Gimp even if I'm not a professional). I can understand your ( I mean your and developers') reasons, even if in the case of GIMP and other software I don't totally agree. But reading it I'm realizing that maybe I've lost an important piece of information: Does the target GIMP are really just Professionals ( photographers , or image editors)?

I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem.

Well anyway best regards
Alessia

Simon Budig
2012-08-21 13:29:59 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Hi Alessia.

Alessia (alemim@gmail.com) wrote:

I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem.

Yes, we are targeting professional users when doing further development on the user interface.

However, please do not take this as a rejection of non-professionals. It is basically a guideline at whose needs we look first, when we have no idea what to do. We want to streamline the use for professionals, but if there is something we can do to help the non-pro - and it does not interfere with the "professionals" workflow it probably will be considered and added.

We certainly do not have the goal to make life harder for non-pros.

The whole save vs. export discussion unfortunately is not very productive, since a group of very vocal people has decided that we did this just to alienate them and their workflow. At the same time they choose to just disregard our explanations as stupid and/or pointless.

I see and fully understand that this change is quite disruptive on established usage patterns and finger-memory-habits, but we were fully aware of this and firmly believe, that the change is one for the better.

We believe that it is not impossible to adapt to a new keyboard shortcut and we gain a lot of confidence in the program, because it no longer lies about the "saved" state of my multi-layered image. Which - to my understanding - is something even non-pros deal with soon after starting with the Gimp. Unless of course they just use Gimp as a fancy format conversion and color correction tool.

I hope this helps, Simon

Alessia
2012-08-21 13:48:00 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Simon Budig ha scritto:

Hi Alessia.

Alessia (alemim@gmail.com) wrote:

I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem.

Yes, we are targeting professional users when doing further development on the user interface.

However, please do not take this as a rejection of non-professionals. It is basically a guideline at whose needs we look first, when we have no idea what to do. We want to streamline the use for professionals, but if there is something we can do to help the non-pro - and it does not interfere with the "professionals" workflow it probably will be considered and added.

We certainly do not have the goal to make life harder for non-pros.

The whole save vs. export discussion unfortunately is not very productive, since a group of very vocal people has decided that we did this just to alienate them and their workflow. At the same time they choose to just disregard our explanations as stupid and/or pointless.

I see and fully understand that this change is quite disruptive on established usage patterns and finger-memory-habits, but we were fully aware of this and firmly believe, that the change is one for the better.

We believe that it is not impossible to adapt to a new keyboard shortcut and we gain a lot of confidence in the program, because it no longer lies about the "saved" state of my multi-layered image. Which - to my understanding - is something even non-pros deal with soon after starting with the Gimp. Unless of course they just use Gimp as a fancy format conversion and color correction tool.

I hope this helps, Simon

Hi Simon,
thank you for your answer, I just wanted to make clear a personal doubt. I think that maybe, as you already said, the great problem here is become accustomed with the new behavior. Many people like me are not used to it, yet and maybe it's because they feel it annoying. By the way I usually save in Gimp native format when I think I'll have to work on an image later. I've to begin to remember to export it in my favorite format when the work is done.
Well yes, this discussion is not the more productive ever, also maybe some recent comments were a little too concise. But I guess this sometimes happens
Best regards
Alessia

maderios
2012-08-21 13:59:36 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

On 08/21/2012 03:12 PM, Alessia wrote:

I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem.

Hi

Preventing the user from choosing takes away Gimp from the professional world. Moreover, in this case, it's the same problem for amateur and professionnal.
I said, many times here and somewhere else, this new Gimp behaviour concerning "save" function is a regression. To be positive, I propose Gimp gives the choice with two possibilities concerning "save" : the (normal) Gimp-2.6 way and the recent Gimp-2.8 way for those who like it. Everyone will agree, no more war... This becomes very annoying to the reputation of Gimp.

Regards

Joao S. O. Bueno
2012-08-21 14:05:37 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

On 21 August 2012 10:12, Alessia wrote:

Alexandre Prokoudine ha scritto:

Sorry if I jump in the discussion so out of nowhere ( I'm currently reading it because I use Gimp even if I'm not a professional). I can understand your ( I mean your and developers') reasons, even if in the case of GIMP and other software I don't totally agree. But reading it I'm realizing that maybe I've lost an important piece of information: Does the target GIMP are really just Professionals ( photographers , or image editors)?

Of course not.
The only thing that has changed is that it is now very hard for one to shoot oneself
on the foot by opening an image, playing around with it, and overwriting the original without
really meaning it.

What happened I think could be called "enforcement of the perception that an Image open in GIMP is more than a single-layer, flat thing, with no layers, no selection, etc..."

On explaining why this approach is preferred, the developers use to say something along
"changes in the program are geared towards making the tools better for professionals ".
People disliking the feature, uses a twiwsted logic normally only seem in jokes and childish plays to say
"if it is good for pros, it is bad for amateurs".

Based on the fact that there is no going back on this development decision, unhappy people started this crying as if GIMP developers where their enemies. that is so even though nothing prevents one of assigning whatever shortcuts he wants to the "export" menu options, (I missed the part about the confirmation
for closing, when leaving GIMP - but that, as shown, can be simply changed by a
two liner script as Akanna had done)

And it is really that: not any o f the other fantastic features included in GIMP 2.8 is been commented upon, and none of them changes the way of working of anybody - instead, they just add even more possibilities for great and fantastic work by amateurs and professionals alike. (resource tagging, paint dynamics, new tools, etc...)

I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem.

Well
anyway best regards
Alessia

Ken Warner
2012-08-21 14:16:32 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

The paradigm for saving work was figured out and became a standard action years ago.

New; Open; Save; Save As; have all the functionality that is needed. Along with a few carefully thought out warning dialogs -- that's all that is needed.

If one is really concerned about losing work, one should just New an XCF file to start with. It all flows naturally from that. Seems to me that professionals earn that title by *not* losing work.

Ok Alex -- let the insults fly....

On 8/21/2012 7:05 AM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote:

On 21 August 2012 10:12, Alessia wrote:

Alexandre Prokoudine ha scritto:

Sorry if I jump in the discussion so out of nowhere ( I'm currently reading it because I use Gimp even if I'm not a professional). I can understand your ( I mean your and developers') reasons, even if in the case of GIMP and other software I don't totally agree. But reading it I'm realizing that maybe I've lost an important piece of information: Does the target GIMP are really just Professionals ( photographers , or image editors)?

Of course not.
The only thing that has changed is that it is now very hard for one to shoot oneself
on the foot by opening an image, playing around with it, and overwriting the original without
really meaning it.

What happened I think could be called "enforcement of the perception that an Image open in GIMP is more than a single-layer, flat thing, with no layers, no selection, etc..."

On explaining why this approach is preferred, the developers use to say something along
"changes in the program are geared towards making the tools better for professionals ".
People disliking the feature, uses a twiwsted logic normally only seem in jokes and childish plays to say
"if it is good for pros, it is bad for amateurs".

Based on the fact that there is no going back on this development decision, unhappy people started this crying as if GIMP developers where their enemies. that is so even though nothing prevents one of assigning whatever shortcuts he wants to the "export" menu options, (I missed the part about the confirmation
for closing, when leaving GIMP - but that, as shown, can be simply changed by a
two liner script as Akanna had done)

And it is really that: not any o f the other fantastic features included in GIMP 2.8 is been commented upon, and none of them changes the way of working of anybody - instead, they just add even more possibilities for great and fantastic work by amateurs and professionals alike. (resource tagging, paint dynamics, new tools, etc...)

I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem.

Well
anyway best regards
Alessia

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Alessia
2012-08-21 14:32:12 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Joao S. O. Bueno ha scritto:

On 21 August 2012 10:12, Alessia wrote:

Alexandre Prokoudine ha scritto:
Sorry if I jump in the discussion so out of nowhere ( I'm currently reading it because I use Gimp even if I'm not a professional). I can understand your ( I mean your and developers') reasons, even if in the case of GIMP and other software I don't totally agree. But reading it I'm realizing that maybe I've lost an important piece of information: Does the target GIMP are really just Professionals ( photographers , or image editors)?

Of course not.
The only thing that has changed is that it is now very hard for one to shoot oneself
on the foot by opening an image, playing around with it, and overwriting the original without
really meaning it.

well. You are right I 'ven't yet thought of this scenario but now that I've thought about it I think that when I'll become used to the new save feature I'll be able to spare my brain the little thrill everytime it felt when I was about to press the save button, because times ago I've done this mistake quite frequently and I was really pissed of of my own dumbness.
If one explains things like this everything is more understandable and maybe there are less misunderstandings. Thank you for the explanation,
Best regards
Alessia

What happened I think could be called "enforcement of the perception that an Image open in GIMP is more than a single-layer, flat thing, with no layers, no selection, etc..."

On explaining why this approach is preferred, the developers use to say something along
"changes in the program are geared towards making the tools better for professionals ".
People disliking the feature, uses a twiwsted logic normally only seem in jokes and childish plays to say
"if it is good for pros, it is bad for amateurs".

Based on the fact that there is no going back on this development decision, unhappy people started this crying as if GIMP developers where their enemies. that is so even though nothing prevents one of assigning whatever shortcuts he wants to the "export" menu options, (I missed the part about the confirmation
for closing, when leaving GIMP - but that, as shown, can be simply changed by a
two liner script as Akanna had done)

And it is really that: not any o f the other fantastic features included in GIMP 2.8 is been commented upon, and none of them changes the way of working of anybody - instead, they just add even more possibilities for great and fantastic work by amateurs and professionals alike. (resource tagging, paint dynamics, new tools, etc...)

I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem.

Well
anyway best regards
Alessia

Alessia
2012-08-21 14:38:29 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Ken Warner ha scritto:

The paradigm for saving work was figured out and became a standard action years ago.

New; Open; Save; Save As; have all the functionality that is needed. Along with
a few carefully thought out warning dialogs -- that's all that is needed.

If one is really concerned about losing work, one should just New an XCF file to start with.
It all flows naturally from that. Seems to me that professionals earn that
title by *not* losing work.

Ok Alex -- let the insults fly....

Sorry but the asking mail is mine not Alexandre's, the quote is incorrent ( I apologize for this). And I m not going to insult nobody 'cause is just a waste of time.

Alessia

Richard Gitschlag
2012-08-21 15:46:01 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:29:59 +0200 From: simon@budig.de
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?

Hi Alessia.

Alessia (alemim@gmail.com) wrote:

I'm really asking because I'm not pro and I don't want to became but I'm, say, an amateur that us, for now, GImp in quite basic way ( or better in a purpose oriented way) and this thing of the exporting behavior is quite annoying ( to me) especially because there no choice to change it, but might be not the only problem.

However, please do not take this as a rejection of non-professionals. It is basically a guideline at whose needs we look first, when we have no idea what to do. We want to streamline the use for professionals, but if there is something we can do to help the non-pro - and it does not interfere with the "professionals" workflow it probably will be considered and added.

...like taking the existing warning and giving it an "Export/Cancel" choice instead of simply "OK" ? That's the easiest compromise that's been suggested, and it's been dogmatically shot down as "not doing that, sorry". That is the part I just don't understand / agree with.

Though it would make for a great minor fork or plugin....

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Richard Gitschlag
2012-08-21 15:52:41 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:05:37 -0300 From: gwidion@mpc.com.br
To: alemim@gmail.com
CC: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?

And it is really that: not any o f the other fantastic features included in GIMP 2.8 is been commented upon, and none of them changes the way of working of anybody - instead, they just add even more possibilities for great and fantastic work by amateurs and professionals alike. (resource tagging, paint dynamics, new tools, etc...)

Oh, paint dynamics have been commented on at least, and not in the good way. Its new implementation is genuinely flawed and needs to be significantly (if not completely) re-thought out to be useful on a practical level.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Simon Budig
2012-08-21 16:19:29 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Richard Gitschlag (strata_ranger@hotmail.com) wrote:

there is something we can do to help the non-pro - and it does not interfere with the "professionals" workflow it probably will be considered and added.

...like taking the existing warning and giving it an "Export/Cancel" choice instead of simply "OK" ? That's the easiest compromise that's been suggested, and it's been dogmatically shot down as "not doing that, sorry". That is the part I just don't understand / agree with.

There are a few problems I can see with this.

As you probably know, people (professionals and non-pros) don't read dialogs. There is powerful pattern matching going on there and people just hit a button without realizing what they just did.

Adding this shortcut would train users to use a workflow with an artificial stumbling block inbetween. Instead of getting used to the distinction between save and export they'd just see this new nuisance thing they encounter when trying to "save" their work. They just wouldn't use the Export menu entry. And then we'd get the same flak we get now for adding this nuisance. I don't see anything good in this approach.

The opposite example is what we did some time ago with the basic color correction tools: We added buttons that allow a user to "migrate" to more powerful utils: Brightness & Contrast offers to "Edit these Settings as Levels", which in turn suggest the Curves tool, each time enhancing the flexibility and guiding the user to more advanced features, therefor helping in discovering new features.

There is no conceptually similiar relationship for Save and Export, we want them to be considered separate things. Hence no shortcut.

Better explanation? Simon

Richard Gitschlag
2012-08-23 16:42:09 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 18:19:29 +0200 From: simon@budig.de
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?

Richard Gitschlag (strata_ranger@hotmail.com) wrote:

there is something we can do to help the non-pro - and it does not interfere with the "professionals" workflow it probably will be considered and added.

...like taking the existing warning and giving it an "Export/Cancel" choice instead of simply "OK" ? That's the easiest compromise that's been suggested, and it's been dogmatically shot down as "not doing that, sorry". That is the part I just don't understand / agree with.

There are a few problems I can see with this.

As you probably know, people (professionals and non-pros) don't read dialogs. There is powerful pattern matching going on there and people just hit a button without realizing what they just did.

Adding this shortcut would train users to use a workflow with an artificial stumbling block inbetween....

Okay, then what purpose does the "Save a copy" command do these days when from the user's perspective the ONLY difference between it and "Export" is the target file format? I suggested it once that the former should now be treated as a variation of Export.

I don't think many people ever learned 'when' and 'why' to use that command when there's a normal Save command available, contributing to the problem of losing work when you saved a non-XCF version, then quit GIMP without/before saving changes back to your XCF workfile.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Simon Budig
2012-08-24 08:40:47 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Richard Gitschlag (strata_ranger@hotmail.com) wrote:

Okay, then what purpose does the "Save a copy" command do these days when from the user's perspective the ONLY difference between it and "Export" is the target file format? I suggested it once that the former should now be treated as a variation of Export.

I don't know the reasoning behind that one. Sorry.

Bye, Simon

Rob Antonishen
2012-08-24 11:05:32 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Adding this shortcut would train users to use a workflow with an artificial stumbling block inbetween....

Okay, then what purpose does the "Save a copy" command do these days when from the user's perspective the ONLY difference between it and "Export" is the target file format? I suggested it once that the former should now be treated as a variation of Export.

Personally, I would use Save a Copy to create incremental backups of my xcf files. If my project xcf is "bob.xcf" then every now and then at a different completion save I do a Save As "bob-1.xcf" then later "bob-2.xcf" but I continue working in "bob.xcf" as my active image.

(I created a script under 2.6 http://registry.gimp.org/node/14246 to do this for me, using a date/number append so I don;t have to remember which save-as version I've already used.)

-Rob A>

Richard Gitschlag
2012-08-24 16:42:44 UTC (over 1 year ago)

Save, Save As and Export separated?

Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:40:47 +0200 From: simon@budig.de
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Save, Save As and Export separated?

Richard Gitschlag (strata_ranger@hotmail.com) wrote:

Okay, then what purpose does the "Save a copy" command do these days when from the user's perspective the ONLY difference between it and "Export" is the target file format? I suggested it once that the former should now be treated as a variation of Export.

I don't know the reasoning behind that one. Sorry.

Bye, Simon
--

"Save a Copy":
- Does not clean the image status (GIMP will still ask to save any changes) - Does not change the image-file association for future Save operations

"Export": - Does not clean the image status
- Does not change the image-file association for future Save operations

Expressed in those terms they do look virtually identical, don't they?

In 2.6, Save a Copy more or less WAS an export command anyway. Professional workflow would be that when you're operating on an XCF image you "Save" the XCF and "Save a Copy" anything else ... no problems, no lost work. Except that apparently a lot of people only ever used the "Save" command, which is what led to so many people losing work when they quit GIMP.

So IMHO we have one command on the File menu that is extremely similar (especially in the eyes of the user) to another, and it was probably never actually getting used in the first place. If I could find a good analogy, it would be like ... I dunno, like having two separate Levels commands where one is intended solely for grayscale and the other solely RGB.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.