Hi,

On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 21:00, Alan Horkan wrote:

I was playing around in Paint Shop Pro trying to see what it does well and what caught my interest today was that in seemingly every dialog window you are able to maximise the window unlike standard dialogs where this functionality is usually disabled/greyed out.

This is more useful than it sounds, take for example the File Open Dialog. If you maximise the window the widgets reflow and the space with the document list exands to fit the avialable space (and I think the preview box expands too, but I dont have it in front of me right now).

If the GIMP was to consider this feature would it require a whole lot of work to make sure the dialogs reflowed properly when maximised? (Keep in mind that users might be using text sizes larger than the defaults so static widget layouts are a really bad idea).

In general all GIMP dialogs can be maximized and widgets reflow as you described. What are you talking about?

Sven

On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 01:21:05PM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

(Keep in mind that users might be using text sizes larger than the defaults so static widget layouts are a really bad idea).

In general all GIMP dialogs can be maximized and widgets reflow as you described. What are you talking about?

File->New is the exception (it's fixed-size), but that's the only dialog I could come up with that has this problem.

Because that's the dialog most often perceived as dialog, maybe he was assuming all others are the same?

From:
To: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Allow Maximise in Dialogs, like in Paint ShopPro 8
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:23:57 +0200

On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 01:21:05PM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

(Keep in mind that users might be using text sizes larger than the defaults so static widget layouts are a really bad idea).

In general all GIMP dialogs can be maximized and widgets reflow as you described. What are you talking about?

File->New is the exception (it's fixed-size), but that's the only dialog I could come up with that has this problem.

Because that's the dialog most often perceived as dialog, maybe he was assuming all others are the same?

hmmm, yes, it does make you wander if he's ever used the GIMP if he's making such suggestions...

--
-----==- | ----==-- _ | ---==---(_)__ __ ____ __ Marc Lehmann +-- --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / pcg@goof.com |e| -=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE --+ The choice of a GNU generation | |

From: Alan Horkan
To: Phil Harper
CC: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Allow Maximise in Dialogs, like in Paint ShopPro 8
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:29:53 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11]) by mc1-f24.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft >On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Phil Harper wrote:

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:15:08 +0000 From: Phil Harper
To: pcg@goof.com
Cc: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Allow Maximise in Dialogs, like in Paint ShopPro 8

From:
To: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Allow Maximise in Dialogs, like in Paint ShopPro 8
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:23:57 +0200

On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 01:21:05PM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

(Keep in mind that users might be using text sizes larger than the defaults so static widget layouts are a really bad idea).

In general all GIMP dialogs can be maximized and widgets reflow as

you

described. What are you talking about?

File->New is the exception (it's fixed-size), but that's the only

dialog

I could come up with that has this problem.

Because that's the dialog most often perceived as dialog, maybe he was assuming all others are the same?

hmmm, yes, it does make you wander if he's ever used the GIMP if he's

making

such suggestions...

That was incredibly rude and entirely uncalled for.

- Alan

/me resisting the urge to say more

i'm terribly sorry, forgot to add the ;)

not that this would make the email any less rude i'm sure.

Phil.

__________________

Hi,

On Sat, 2003-08-16 at 21:29, Alan Horkan wrote:

hmmm, yes, it does make you wander if he's ever used the GIMP if he's making such suggestions...

That was incredibly rude and entirely uncalled for.

Yes, the answer may have been rude but you still did not explain what dialogs you were talking about.

Sven

Hi,

On Sun, 2003-08-17 at 19:05, Alan Horkan wrote:

The problem is that to resize the windows you need to grab the window edge and drag, so this useful and worthwhile feature is wasted. If a window can be resized then it really should have the Maximise Window decoration (with the rare exception of a few message dialogs). (Similarly you there should probably be a minimise icon for any of the non modal dialogs).

We certainly don't fiddle with the window decorations. It's entirely the fault of your WM.

Sven

Sorry if this is a silly question, but does the "maximize" button on modern X11 window managers behave differently than in Windows? Doesn't it always make the window fill the whole screen?

(Hmm, or is it so that even on Windows it is possible to make the maximize button not always maximizing to the screen size, but to some pre-set max size? If so, few applications seem to use this. Will have to investigate.)

--tml

Hi,

On Sun, 2003-08-17 at 21:04, Alan Horkan wrote:

The ImageMap plugin has the a maximise window decoration but very few other windows do, so even if it is the Window managers fault the GIMP will have some blame to shoulder too.

The imagemap plug-in creates a TOPLEVEL window while most other GIMP dialogs are of type DIALOG and I think this is correct. Any WM that thinks that dialog windows shouldn't have minimise and maximize buttons is probably on crack.

I think there is a distinction between a dialog and a normal window that is not clearly defined somewhere.

Doesn't the WM spec define this? It should.

I'll probalby file a bug report to keep track and help me remember. I'll assign it to myself, please dont close it invalid until I can properly verify that the problem is not with the GIMP.

Please file it against metacity.

Sven

tml@iki.fi (2003-08-17 at 1923.39 +0000):

Sorry if this is a silly question, but does the "maximize" button on modern X11 window managers behave differently than in Windows? Doesn't it always make the window fill the whole screen?

It can do anything the WM wants, but the norm is like in MSWindows. Here I get vertical, horizontal or both, in full screen with or without borders and "collision" with things like pagers.

(Hmm, or is it so that even on Windows it is possible to make the maximize button not always maximizing to the screen size, but to some pre-set max size? If so, few applications seem to use this. Will have to investigate.)

The discussion is about which windows should be maximizable and then making sure they have the button (details about what maximize is are left to the wms). Typical fight wms vs apps.

GSR

On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 07:23:39PM +0000, Tor Lillqvist wrote:

Sorry if this is a silly question, but does the "maximize" button on modern X11 window managers behave differently than in Windows? Doesn't it always make the window fill the whole screen?

The maximize button does exactly what it was told to do (if you have a maximize button :)

I have two, one that maximizes vertically and one that maximizes to the whole screen, in both cases sans borders. Other window managers might act differently and support more or less operations. Apart from some hints, maximizing is not in any way special, it's just another resizing operation to the application.

(Hmm, or is it so that even on Windows it is possible to make the maximize button not always maximizing to the screen size, but to some pre-set max size? If so, few applications seem to use this. Will have

Applications on X11 can request a specific size (not a special maximised size). Window managers can override that, but usually don't (if an app says don't resize me it's usually better to comply, unless the user forces the issue).

There is no standard protocol for requesting a "maximize size" (probably there isn't one at all, but I do not know this). Implementing one is easy, getting all the window managers to implement it is not so easy :)

I don't know exactly what you were fishing for, so I don't think I provided a good answer. The main difference to windows is that window managers have total control and provide their own policy on what "maximise/minimise" etc. means.

On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 08:04:41PM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:

Bet you Five Euro Havoc Pennington will disagree and that the GIMP should be setting additional hints or suchlike.

It already does, that is probably your problem.

The ImageMap plugin has the a maximise window decoration but very few other windows do, so even if it is the Window managers fault the GIMP will have some blame to shoulder too.

No. The application simply states what it is, and your window manager implements a policy around it. The app must not (and can not) override the window managers idea of how he should decorate windows.

If you want additional decoration around some windows you have to find a way to tell your window manager to do so, or find another window manager that allows you to do that.

Marc Lehmann (pcg@goof.com) wrote:

There is no standard protocol for requesting a "maximize size" (probably there isn't one at all, but I do not know this). Implementing one is easy, getting all the window managers to implement it is not so easy :)

The Window Size Hints (XA_WM_NORMAL_HINTS) that an application provides for the window manager not only have base_(width|height) and min_(width|height), they also have max_width and max_height fields. (also interesting is the (min|max)_aspect...)

However, given scalable fonts this rarely is useful and I am unsure about the support in the various toolkits and windowmanagers. I am also unaware of any programs using it.

So, there *is* a standard protocol already... :-)

Bye, Simon

On 08/17/03 15:04, Alan Horkan wrote:

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, Sven Neumann wrote:

On Sun, 2003-08-17 at 19:05, Alan Horkan wrote:

The problem is that to resize the windows you need to grab the window edge and drag, so this useful and worthwhile feature is wasted. If a window can be resized then it really should have the Maximise Window decoration (with the rare exception of a few message dialogs). (Similarly you there should probably be a minimise icon for any of the non modal dialogs).

We certainly don't fiddle with the window decorations. It's entirely the fault of your WM.

Bet you Five Euro Havoc Pennington will disagree and that the GIMP should be setting additional hints or suchlike.

For what it's worth, kwm (the KDE window manager) puts the maximize button on every dialog that I tried, except for the new image dialog - even dialogs that are menu tear-offs. Maximizing the menu tearoff does not actually maximize it though, which makes sense to me, given how most of the other dialogs resize themselves when maximized.

Though I don't see this as being much of an issue personally, the KDE window manager handles it as you seem to expect.

Chris

> On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 07:23:39PM +0000, Tor Lillqvist wrote: > > Sorry if this is a silly question, but does the "maximize" button on > > modern X11 window managers behave differently than in Windows? Doesn't > > it always make the window fill the whole screen?

Sorry, I was a bit confused, I now realize that not even on Windows does the "maximize" button always maximize to fill the whole screen. Most common counterexample: Console windows, they maximize only in the vertical direction.

--tml

Sven Neumann wrote:

The imagemap plug-in creates a TOPLEVEL window while most other GIMP dialogs are of type DIALOG and I think this is correct. Any WM that thinks that dialog windows shouldn't have minimise and maximize buttons is probably on crack.

I've always thought the same about metacity which is one of these.

Please file it against metacity.

But don't hope for fix because Havoc won't allow to change this *#$! behaviour.

Tom Mraz

Hi,

On Mon, 2003-08-18 at 20:30, Tom Mraz wrote:

Please file it against metacity.

But don't hope for fix because Havoc won't allow to change this *#$! behaviour.

Well, I really don't see what The GIMP could do about this but of course I might be missing something important. We don't disable the buttons and the WM has all the hints it needs to detect that our dialogs are resizeable. Did Havoc ever explain why metacity is behaving like this?

Sven