Specifically I don't like the ctrl-L thing to type a path in - I frequently use a file browser or shell that I can copy a path from and paste into the open dialog of most applications I use. Until last month I didn't even know about the ctrl-L option.

In a more philosophical sense I don't like that it's different from the rest of the file open/save dialogs on the OSes that I use. I use KDE and Windows and I love that I can get the Gimp in both. I don't like that in both of those environments I have this application that acts differently to do the same job.

It's not just the Gimp, I have the same complaint about the File Open/Save in Blender3d and all those Windows apps that think Open/Save needs to be redone.

PS: It seems hard to discuss this kind of issue without starting a war, but please read all my statements in the friendliest (but not, of course, sarcastic) voice that you can imagine ;-)

George Farris wrote:

On Thu, 2006-02-03 at 12:00 -0800, gimp-user-request@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU wrote:

On the other hand, the new GTK open/save dialogue has been subject to many critics, in Gnome and in Gimp. Gimp developers have tried to implement fixes for most of the annoyances. But the dialogue is still quite bothering. However, the blame is to be put on the gnome HIG, not
on Gimp developers.

Just my 0.02 euro cents, as a user.

I love the open/save dialogue. What specifically are people having trouble with? Having the places tied into these dialogs is great and I can add remove these "bookmarks" as I like. Is it the functionality or the UI?

PS: This is just curiosity I'm not trying to start a war.

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George Farris wrote:

On Thu, 2006-02-03 at 12:00 -0800, gimp-user-request@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU wrote:

On the other hand, the new GTK open/save dialogue has been subject to many critics, in Gnome and in Gimp. Gimp developers have tried to implement fixes for most of the annoyances. But the dialogue is still quite bothering. However, the blame is to be put on the gnome HIG, not
on Gimp developers.

Just my 0.02 euro cents, as a user.

I love the open/save dialogue. What specifically are people having trouble with? Having the places tied into these dialogs is great and I can add remove these "bookmarks" as I like. Is it the functionality or the UI?

PS: This is just curiosity I'm not trying to start a war.

Checking the mailing list shows that the two main complaints are: 1- the absence of the keyboard navigation with tab completion that was in 1.x. This can be actually activated by CTRL-L but no-one can actually find this shortcut "naturally", so everyone will at least complain once about it. Also, the file name completion is different from before, and some may find it less practical but this is very subjective (I preferred the old one, and I think "tab" should definitely be used for file-name completion to have a consistent interface).

2- the lack of way to have the "file type" and "other folder" navigation portions of the dialogue always opened. It is quite bothering for many users to have to click every time on the little "+" in order to choose the file format or the file location. Users do not always want to have to remember the extensions for every file format around, neither they feel normal in a modern interface to have to type them. Simply making this a preference or remember the last state would probably solve the issue.

From what I can gather of reading the mailing-lists for users, developers and windows port, while the gimp "own" part of the interface as much improved in the last years (preview for plugin / docks / window management / image window top-menu), the compliance to the HIG has raised a lot of bitterness in the community. But this is not a gimp issue. Linus Torvalds, in his own funny way, has pin-pointed the problem a few months ago. However, I have already said too much, this is flamewar material ;)

Regards,

Olivier

Hi,

Olivier Ripoll writes:

From what I can gather of reading the mailing-lists for users, developers and windows port, while the gimp "own" part of the interface as much improved in the last years (preview for plugin / docks / window management / image window top-menu), the compliance to the HIG has raised a lot of bitterness in the community.

Can you please stop spreading this nonsense? The GNOME Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) have not much, if anything, to do with the way the file chooser dialog looks and feels. Please read the guidelines before you talk about them. Making GIMP more HIG compliant has led to more consistent and more pleasantly looking dialogs and has substantially improved the usability of the application. I have not yet heard any valid complaints about this step.

Sven

Hi,

Olivier Ripoll writes:

1- the absence of the keyboard navigation with tab completion that was in 1.x. This can be actually activated by CTRL-L but no-one can actually find this shortcut "naturally", so everyone will at least complain once about it. Also, the file name completion is different from before, and some may find it less practical but this is very subjective (I preferred the old one, and I think "tab" should definitely be used for file-name completion to have a consistent interface).

The new dialog IMO has better keyboard navigation than the old one. It is just different. And no, I am not speaking about the Ctrl-L dialog.

Sven

Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

Olivier Ripoll writes:

From what I can gather of reading the mailing-lists for users, developers and windows port, while the gimp "own" part of the interface as much improved in the last years (preview for plugin / docks / window management / image window top-menu), the compliance to the HIG has raised a lot of bitterness in the community.

Can you please stop spreading this nonsense? The GNOME Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) have not much, if anything, to do with the way the file chooser dialog looks and feels. Please read the guidelines before you talk about them. Making GIMP more HIG compliant has led to more consistent and more pleasantly looking dialogs and has substantially improved the usability of the application. I have not yet heard any valid complaints about this step.

Sven

Sven,

Complaints about the dialogue pop up every single month on the 3 mailing lists I have mentioned. You can refuse to read them, but then do not accuse people who read them to mention them when specifically ask to in a thread.

And, for your information, I have read the HIG.

Listen, Sven, could you also please read the mails you respond to? I have clearly stated twice in this thread that the interface is better now than before. So we do agree on this point.

Best regards,

Olivier.

PS: If the HIG do not prevent improving the open/save dialogues, then I guess it _will_ be improved further.

Von: Olivier Ripoll

From what I can gather of reading the mailing-lists for users, developers and windows port, while the gimp "own" part of the interface as much improved in the last years (preview for plugin / docks / window management / image window top-menu), the compliance to the HIG has raised a lot of bitterness in the community.

Can you please stop spreading this nonsense? The GNOME Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) have not much, if anything, to do with the way the file chooser dialog looks and feels. Please read the guidelines before you talk about them. Making GIMP more HIG compliant has led to more consistent and more pleasantly looking dialogs and has substantially improved the usability of the application. I have not yet heard any valid complaints about this step.

Complaints about the dialogue pop up every single month on the 3 mailing lists I have mentioned. You can refuse to read them, but then do not accuse people who read them to mention them when specifically ask to in a thread.

You're claiming that the GIMP UI has improved, but following the HIG wasn't something that was welcomed in the community. But following the HIG was what has caused the improvements.

Your claim, as written here, is quite generic, and it seems like you totally disagree with it. You should be more specific about the things you disagree with.

HTH,
Michael

Michael Schumacher wrote:

Von: Olivier Ripoll

From what I can gather of reading the mailing-lists for users, developers and windows port, while the gimp "own" part of the interface as much improved in the last years (preview for plugin / docks / window management / image window top-menu), the compliance to the HIG has raised a lot of bitterness in the community.

Can you please stop spreading this nonsense? The GNOME Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) have not much, if anything, to do with the way the file chooser dialog looks and feels. Please read the guidelines before you talk about them. Making GIMP more HIG compliant has led to more consistent and more pleasantly looking dialogs and has substantially improved the usability of the application. I have not yet heard any valid complaints about this step.

Complaints about the dialogue pop up every single month on the 3 mailing lists I have mentioned. You can refuse to read them, but then do not accuse people who read them to mention them when specifically ask to in a thread.

You're claiming that the GIMP UI has improved, but following the HIG wasn't something that was welcomed in the community. But following the HIG was what has caused the improvements.

Your claim, as written here, is quite generic, and it seems like you totally disagree with it. You should be more specific about the things you disagree with.

HTH,
Michael

I disagree with your interpretation of my messages. :)

So I will try to reformulate this in another way to avoid the misunderstandings:

1- Gimp UI has improved. I never said the opposite. Clear?

2- The new GTK file dialogue has raised many complaints. see for instance the thread called "Bring back the keyboard".

3- Most of the complaints have been addressed (regarding point 2).

4- There are still some points which raise complaints. 2 are mentioned in the thread:
a) the need of an obscure key combo to access the file completion navigation.
b) the fact that the folder navigation (and perhaps) the file type chooser are not directly accessible.

Please keep in mind the reason for my messages: One person asked for points he could discuss/investigate for an article about the UI. I suggested to show the improvements for previous version. Then I was asked what were the points still generating complaints. I listed what are the two most frequent one in my opinion.

And gimp developers fall on me as if I had said that I preferred 1.2.x interface. I never said that. I said that there are areas where the new interface still has not reached the old one.

That you and Sven do not agree with the complaints does not make those complaints disappear. I was asked what are the complaints. I listed them. My opinion is irrelevant. They exist. They pop up every once in a while. It is a stubborn fact.

Best regards,

Olivier

PS: And in case it is not clear after me writing it 4 times now: The Gimp UI has improved since 1.2.x.

On Fri, 2006-03-03 at 14:36 +0100, Olivier Ripoll wrote:

a) the need of an obscure key combo to access the file completion navigation.

There is no key combo to access file completion. Just start typing.

b) the fact that the folder navigation (and perhaps) the file type chooser are not directly accessible.

Can you elaborate on this a little? I don't think I understand this one.

cheers

Hi,

Olivier Ripoll writes:

Complaints about the dialogue pop up every single month on the 3 mailing lists I have mentioned. You can refuse to read them, but then do not accuse people who read them to mention them when specifically ask to in a thread.

The only point that I have a problem with is that you make the Human Interface Guidelines responsible for the design of the file chooser. I don't see how the two are related except perhaps for small details like the amount of padding around the action buttons.

The other problem is that this is the wrong list to discuss file chooser issues.

Sven

Jakub Steiner wrote:

On Fri, 2006-03-03 at 14:36 +0100, Olivier Ripoll wrote:

a) the need of an obscure key combo to access the file completion navigation.

There is no key combo to access file completion. Just start typing.

Indeed. You are right. This is recent, isn't it ? What is the use of CTRL-L now ?
However, there is no visual hint that typing the filename will do something. Having the text entry field would make it clear.

b) the fact that the folder navigation (and perhaps) the file type chooser are not directly accessible.

Can you elaborate on this a little? I don't think I understand this one.

Sure. It would be welcome that the "select file type" and "browse for other folders" be opened by default. Or that they would remember they last state or that this option could be selected by the user.

cheers

Best regards,

Olivier

Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

[...]
The other problem is that this is the wrong list to discuss file chooser issues.

Sven

This was not my aim. I wanted to suggest to Paul Bloch, that in his article about usability for OsNews, he mentions the fact that the UI of Gimp has improved from the 1.x time, and that continuous work is being done on it. Unfortunately, I dared to say that the present situation was not yet perfect, as the ML traffic could suggest.

Best regards,

Olivier.

Von: Olivier Ripoll

I disagree with your interpretation of my messages. :)

Please keep in mind the reason for my messages: One person asked for points he could discuss/investigate for an article about the UI. I suggested to show the improvements for previous version. Then I was asked what were the points still generating complaints. I listed what are the two most frequent one in my opinion.

PS: And in case it is not clear after me writing it 4 times now: The Gimp UI has improved since 1.2.x.

Unfortunately you excluded the HIG issue in your reply. As you point out, this is most likely becoming the source for an article about the GIMP GUI. Should it then be that easy to get to a totally different interpretation of your message?

I doubt that someone who doesn't know the HIG and the changes in the GIMP GUI that were caused by following these guidelines is able to understand your message correctly.

The one issue you're complaining about is the file chooser - I know why you're doing this, I did so myself initially (I have changed my opinion in the meantime). But you made it sound like following HIG is a bad thing in general - I think it wasn't your intention, but as I wrote before, you avoided to give a straight answer to this yet.

HTH, Michael

Hi,

Olivier Ripoll writes:

Indeed. You are right. This is recent, isn't it?

No, this has been the case starting with the very first version of the file chooser. And I keep pointing people to it over and over again.

However, there is no visual hint that typing the filename will do something.

Sure, discoverability of this feature is somewhat poor. But most GTK+ tree and list views allow to be navigated using typeahead. The file-chooser behaves consistently.

Sure. It would be welcome that the "select file type" and "browse for other folders" be opened by default. Or that they would remember they last state or that this option could be selected by the user.

When do you need to use "Select file type"? Perhaps we should just remove it, but then there are some very rare cases where it is needed. A solution would be to ask the user for the file-type in case it cannot be determined automatically. That would effectively move the file-type selection to an extra dialog that most users would never see.

Sven

Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

Olivier Ripoll writes:

>> Sure. It would be welcome that the "select file type" and "browse

for other folders" be opened by default. Or that they would remember they last state or that this option could be selected by the user.

When do you need to use "Select file type"? Perhaps we should just remove it, but then there are some very rare cases where it is needed. A solution would be to ask the user for the file-type in case it cannot be determined automatically. That would effectively move the file-type selection to an extra dialog that most users would never see.

Select file type is useful when:
1- when you want to save to a format, and do not know if gimp can open/save it.

2- you do not remember the extension of the file type. jpeg, tiff, png, gif and xcf are easy to remember, but what is the extension for exotic formats ? Actually, even jpeg and tiff are tricky. Is it jpeg or jpg ? tif or tiff ? In that case, the file type selector is practical.

But I agree you can remove it. But if and only if the "browse" dialogue is opened. Because this dialogue contains its own drop-down that duplicates the functionality. However, if the "browse" dialogue is closed (I am talking about the "save as" window), there is no interface hint for the user of where/how to filter the file type.

I know it is not the right place for it, but anyway, I will go if off-list-topic mode to describe what I think could be considered to improve the file selectors.

The type-ahead could be improved greatly by - having the "->" key doing the same functionality as the "return" key. or having it doing file name completion (see next point). - having a completion of file names to the common part (that is, if I have "foo1.jpg" and "foobar.jpg", I type "f", then press the completion key and automatically "foo" is displayed). - displaying only the files corresponding to the typed string in the file list. I have 50 files, but as soon as "foo" is typed, only "foo1.jpg", "foobar.jpg" and "food.png" are shown.

another possible one: - having the " in the preferences using a different file selector (no file type drop-down, different window sizes) ? Sure it could be made more consistent.

Best regards,

Olivier

PS: And by the way, the article in OSNews would be a perfect place to explain the interface.

Sven

Michael Schumacher wrote:

Unfortunately you excluded the HIG issue in your reply. As you point out, this is most likely becoming the source for an article about the GIMP GUI. Should it then be that easy to get to a totally different interpretation of your message?

I doubt that someone who doesn't know the HIG and the changes in the GIMP GUI that were caused by following these guidelines is able to understand your message correctly.

The one issue you're complaining about is the file chooser - I know why you're doing this, I did so myself initially (I have changed my opinion in the meantime). But you made it sound like following HIG is a bad thing in general - I think it wasn't your intention, but as I wrote before, you avoided to give a straight answer to this yet.

Hi Michael,

The HIG in itself is not a bad thing "in general". MacOS has one, KDE has one, Windows most likely has one. But it should be interpreted as guidelines and above all, as a work in progress itself. When an interface that results of several years of interaction user-developer differs from the HIG that has just a few years of existence, maybe the interface should be changed, maybe the HIG should be changed, or maybe to quote Captain Barbossa:
- "the Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules".

Best regards,

Olivier.

HTH,
Michael

On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 02:53:11PM +0100, Jakub Steiner wrote:

There is no key combo to access file completion. Just start typing.

this can bite you though.

here is the case where it fails miserably:

the dialog shows up and the name in the location area is highlighted.

expand the twisty for the advanced file location and move to a different location in your directories.

once you and the file selector are where you want the image to be, start typing. a little box appears that accepts text and the highlighted text in the location area remains highlighted/unfocused. is it a search that is triggered by that? whatever happens, the dialog accepts the typed text in the new weird and slightly unintuitive (still, sorry) text window and after you have finished typing what you want the file to be named, the new area disappears with no saving having been accomplished.

as a user, you say wtf! (to yourself since it is not correct procedure to express opinions about the designer). click in the location area. the highlighting goes away. rehighlight it and retype your file name.

i like the new file selector. it is easy like that now.

carol

Hi,

Olivier Ripoll writes:

And why are the dialogues for icm/icc profile selection (unstable gimp) and "folders" in the preferences using a different file selector (no file type drop-down, different window sizes) ? Sure it could be made more consistent.

This is so silly. Why should a folder selection dialog have a file type drop-down and why should the dialog care about the size you have last used on your File->Open dialog?

Please ignore the color profile choosers. They are supposed to be replaced by something completely different.

Sven

Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

Olivier Ripoll writes:

And why are the dialogues for icm/icc profile selection (unstable gimp) and "folders" in the preferences using a different file selector (no file type drop-down, different window sizes) ? Sure it could be made more consistent.

This is so silly. Why should a folder selection dialog have a file type drop-down and why should the dialog care about the size you have last used on your File->Open dialog?

Answer for the size: because of the bookmark list on the left. If you have some bookmarks there, the window that opens is too small to show all the bookmarks. Then you have a scrollbar or two appearing (one vertical, one horizontal). Bad for usability. If you use the same window+dialogue geometry as the open dialogue, then you have usually set this window to a sane geometry (no need for scrollbars in the bookmark area).

Also, I think consistency is better if similar windows look the same. This would also apply to some plugins (lighting effects, imagemap, ...) but I do not have problems with the size of their dialogues. I have it with the export/import path dialogues though. Too small.

Please ignore the color profile choosers. They are supposed to be replaced by something completely different.

A flying circus ?

Best regards, und shoenes wochenende für alles.

Olivier

Sven

George Farris wrote:

>> Indeed. You are right. This is recent, isn't it ? What is the use of CTRL-L now ?
>> However, there is no visual hint that typing the filename will do something. Having the text entry field would make it clear. >>
> Not to put to fine a point on it but almost very application out there > including GIMP has key combos that are not visible.

Of course they do, and I don't think anyone objects to having them. The problem is that you need to use an undocumented and very non-obvious procedure to accomplish something that was easy and obvious before.

The GTK team deserves credit for taking up the considerable challenge of making a more usable desktop. But in this case they've blown it: they fixed something that IMHO was not broken, for the sake of the non-technical users they hope to attract to the GNOME platform, and at the expense of *actual* users who, for the most part, have no trouble typing /path/to/whatever and would like to be able to do so with a minimum of fuss.

Hi,

Matt Gushee writes:

The GTK team deserves credit for taking up the considerable challenge of making a more usable desktop. But in this case they've blown it: they fixed something that IMHO was not broken, for the sake of the non-technical users they hope to attract to the GNOME platform, and at the expense of *actual* users who, for the most part, have no trouble typing /path/to/whatever and would like to be able to do so with a minimum of fuss.

Have you ever tried to type /path/to/whatever into a GTK+ file-chooser dialog? Can there be any less fuss?

Sven

Sven Neumann wrote:

they fixed something that IMHO was not broken, for the sake of the non-technical users they hope to attract to the GNOME platform, and at the expense of *actual* users who, for the most part, have no trouble typing /path/to/whatever and would like to be able to do so with a minimum of fuss.

Have you ever tried to type /path/to/whatever into a GTK+ file-chooser dialog? Can there be any less fuss?

You mean GTK2? Okay, now I see that it works. But people like me who have been using GUIs since the mid-80s are accustomed to having a text entry widget to type into. When there is no such widget, people ... well, I don't know about 'people', but I tend to assume that text input is not allowed. So maybe the new dialog isn't so bad after all ... but how are users supposed to know they can type in a path?

One other nit-pick: I can't just paste text for the path, I have to start typing first then I can paste. With a text widget, well, the path acts like any other text.

Matt Gushee wrote:

Sven Neumann wrote:

they fixed something that IMHO was not broken, for the sake of the non-technical users they hope to attract to the GNOME platform, and at the expense of *actual* users who, for the most part, have no trouble typing /path/to/whatever and would like to be able to do so with a minimum of fuss.

Have you ever tried to type /path/to/whatever into a GTK+ file-chooser dialog? Can there be any less fuss?

You mean GTK2? Okay, now I see that it works. But people like me who have been using GUIs since the mid-80s are accustomed to having a text entry widget to type into. When there is no such widget, people ... well, I don't know about 'people', but I tend to assume that text input is not allowed. So maybe the new dialog isn't so bad after all ... but how are users supposed to know they can type in a path?