Most of the things you are saying is true. I am not sure though about the support for Chinese fonts. Handling layers in Gimp is as easy as in Photoshop. You can group them but you cannot clip them as in Photoshop to create clipping mask.
What I am missing from Gimp is the Photoshop-like layer effects and the Adjustment layer. These would be more useful additions than the text effects you mentioned.

jozsefmak

--- Kent Tong wrote:

Hi,

We're an organization promoting open source in Macau. We're considering
whether to organize some training courses on GIMP or not. Before that,
we'd like to evaluate how powerful GIMP is when compared to Photoshop.
We're not insisting that it must be as powerful as Photoshop. We just
need a clear idea on its power.

As I'm not a graphics guy, I've got a colleague to do some initial
evaluation. As my colleague has a strong photoshop background but is
just getting started with GIMP, I'd like to have the confirmation from
someone like you with strong GIMP experience. So, would you please
comment on my colleague's finding below? Thanks in advance!

Disadvantage of GIMP
- Text tool
-- Can't display Chinese in the "GIMP Text Editor" -- Can't control indivitual text format in the same Text. (The format applies to
the whole text)
-- Compare to PhotoShop, creating text effect is difficult. Photoshop built in
text effects. GIMP can only use the filter or script-fu to create effect.
-- Compare to PhotoShop, text effect will still be apply even the Text is
changed. But you need to do everything again if you text need to be changed.
-- Can't display Chinese font in the font selection list.

- Layers control
-- Can't display Chinese in the Layer. -- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define
layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No
group idea in GIMP.

On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 03:10:33AM +0000, Kent Tong wrote:

Hi,

We're an organization promoting open source in Macau. We're considering whether to organize some training courses on GIMP or not. Before that, we'd like to evaluate how powerful GIMP is when compared to Photoshop. We're not insisting that it must be as powerful as Photoshop. We just need a clear idea on its power.

As I'm not a graphics guy, I've got a colleague to do some initial evaluation. As my colleague has a strong photoshop background but is just getting started with GIMP, I'd like to have the confirmation from someone like you with strong GIMP experience. So, would you please comment on my colleague's finding below? Thanks in advance!

Disadvantage of GIMP - Text tool
-- Can't display Chinese in the "GIMP Text Editor" -- Can't control indivitual text format in the same Text. (The format applies to the whole text)
-- Compare to PhotoShop, creating text effect is difficult. Photoshop built in text effects. GIMP can only use the filter or script-fu to create effect.

this reflects the limitations in access TheGIMP has had to fonts. By the time you have permission to use them and access to how they are made, if you are using linux you will respect the people who made the fonts.

if photoshop had been designed to respect the font and the font author, the disadvantage would be equal. photoshop was designed to encourage people to purchase fonts from adobe, perhaps.

-- Compare to PhotoShop, text effect will still be apply even the Text is changed. But you need to do everything again if you text need to be changed. -- Can't display Chinese font in the font selection list.

- Layers control -- Can't display Chinese in the Layer. -- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No group idea in GIMP.

it is interesting that photoshop is considered to have better layers control than gimp. if you use gimp more you will see who has the real control of them.

most people who use photoshop think it is the right and best way. it might be less expensive to get rid of them also and pay someone to help with the chinese text.

carol

Kent Tong wrote:

Disadvantage of GIMP
- Text tool

It is limited. But there are a few enhancements planned for the next release (ex. letter spacing).

-- Can't display Chinese in the "GIMP Text Editor"

Not true for Japanese, so I'm sure this applies to Chinese. See http://epierce.freeshell.org/misc/gimp_japanese.png

-- Can't control indivitual text format in the same Text. (The format applies to the whole text)

True.

-- Compare to PhotoShop, creating text effect is difficult. Photoshop built in text effects. GIMP can only use the filter or script-fu to create effect.

True. There are no dynamic text effects.

-- Compare to PhotoShop, text effect will still be apply even the Text is changed. But you need to do everything again if you text need to be changed.

True.

-- Can't display Chinese font in the font selection list.

Not true for Japanese, so I'm sure this applies to Chinese. See http://epierce.freeshell.org/misc/gimp_japanese_font.png

- Layers control
-- Can't display Chinese in the Layer.

Not true for Japanese, so I'm sure this applies to Chinese. See http://epierce.freeshell.org/misc/gimp_japanese.png

-- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No group idea in GIMP.

Not sure about this one.

Make sure you're running within a Chinese language environment. Assuming you're running Linux, from the command line type: env|grep LANG

On my system, it outputs: LANG=ja_JP.UTF-8 (running Japanese in UTF-8)

To list which Chinese languages are available, try: locale -a|grep ^zh I get...
zh_CN
zh_CN.gb18030
zh_CN.gbk
zh_CN.utf8
zh_HK
zh_HK.utf8
zh_SG
zh_SG.gbk
zh_SG.utf8
zh_TW
zh_TW.euctw
zh_TW.utf8

I don't know which one you need, but try running the Gimp with something like:
export LANG=zh_CN.utf8 && gimp

Now my Gimp interface looks like this: http://epierce.freeshell.org/misc/gimp_chinese.png

I don't know how to input Chinese, so I can't show you any screenshots for that, but I think you're best bet is to pick Chinese as your default language when installing Linux (assuming you're running Linux of course). Not sure how it would work for Windows.

Hope that helps. Eric P.

On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 00:41 -0400, j Mak wrote:

Handling layers in Gimp is as easy as in Photoshop. You can group them

I wasn't aware of this "grouping" ability. Can you please tell me how I would group a bunch of layers?

Thanks, -Gezim

Most of the things you are saying is true. I am not sure though about the support for Chinese fonts.

I don't have any problems using Chinese in the text tool or other text entires...

What I am missing from Gimp is the Photoshop-like layer effects and the Adjustment layer. These would be more useful additions than the text effects you mentioned.

When done right, there wouldn't be a big diference between the effects or effect layers.

Michael

Kent Tong wrote:

Hi,

We're an organization promoting open source in Macau. We're considering whether to organize some training courses on GIMP or not. Before that, we'd like to evaluate how powerful GIMP is when compared to Photoshop. We're not insisting that it must be as powerful as Photoshop. We just need a clear idea on its power.

As I'm not a graphics guy, I've got a colleague to do some initial evaluation. As my colleague has a strong photoshop background but is just getting started with GIMP, I'd like to have the confirmation from someone like you with strong GIMP experience. So, would you please comment on my colleague's finding below? Thanks in advance!

Disadvantage of GIMP - Text tool
-- Can't display Chinese in the "GIMP Text Editor" -- Can't control indivitual text format in the same Text. (The format applies to the whole text)
-- Compare to PhotoShop, creating text effect is difficult. Photoshop built in text effects. GIMP can only use the filter or script-fu to create effect. -- Compare to PhotoShop, text effect will still be apply even the Text is changed. But you need to do everything again if you text need to be changed. -- Can't display Chinese font in the font selection list.

- Layers control -- Can't display Chinese in the Layer. -- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No group idea in GIMP.

On another list, this same issue was raised. I was expecting allot of major differences but it seems to be quite small. They may be major to some people but for most people they will be minor or no issue.

I have never used Photoshop so I cannot comment.

I've been using Photoshop for a bunch of years and only recently used GIMP a few times at work.

Having access to Photoshop and being comfortable with it, I have no reason to use GIMP. The times I have used it, I was a bit annoyed by the interface... how there is no main window that contains everything. As well, some of the organization of menus seemed odd. Of course the interface is a personal thing, and it takes getting used to the change.

For my work specifically, I wished GIMP would offer more control over palettes in Indexed images. More control over chunks in PNG files. But these are specific things that I need in my work. Photoshop lacks in some areas too, that's why in the end I use up to 10 different graphics applications and utilities at work.

In terms of editing, layers, and effects... nothing beats Photoshop in my books.

-----Original Message----- From: gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu [mailto:gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Kent Tong Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:11 PM To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: [Gimp-user] Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop

Hi,

We're an organization promoting open source in Macau. We're considering whether to organize some training courses on GIMP or not. Before that, we'd like to evaluate how powerful GIMP is when compared to Photoshop. We're not insisting that it must be as powerful as Photoshop. We just need a clear idea on its power.

As I'm not a graphics guy, I've got a colleague to do some initial evaluation. As my colleague has a strong photoshop background but is just getting started with GIMP, I'd like to have the confirmation from someone like you with strong GIMP experience. So, would you please comment on my colleague's finding below? Thanks in advance!

Disadvantage of GIMP - Text tool
-- Can't display Chinese in the "GIMP Text Editor" -- Can't control indivitual text format in the same Text. (The format applies to the whole text)
-- Compare to PhotoShop, creating text effect is difficult. Photoshop built in text effects. GIMP can only use the filter or script-fu to create effect. -- Compare to PhotoShop, text effect will still be apply even the Text is changed. But you need to do everything again if you text need to be changed. -- Can't display Chinese font in the font selection list.

- Layers control -- Can't display Chinese in the Layer. -- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No group idea in GIMP.

Gezim Hoxha wrote:

On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 00:41 -0400, j Mak wrote:

Handling layers in Gimp is as easy as in Photoshop. You can group them

I wasn't aware of this "grouping" ability. Can you please tell me how I would group a bunch of layers?

Thanks, -Gezim

I think he means you can group them with respect to move and transform tools, using the "chain" or "link" icon between the "eye" icon and the layer thumbnail in the layers window.

Sincerely,

Olivier.

--- Kalle Ounapuu wrote:

I've been using Photoshop for a bunch of years and only recently used GIMP a few times at work.

Having access to Photoshop and being comfortable with it, I have no reason to use GIMP. The times I have used it, I was a bit annoyed by the interface... how there is no main window that contains everything. As well, some of the organization of menus seemed odd.

I also use both Photoshop and Gimp and agree that Potoshop is more user friendly.
The lack of a main window in Gimp seems to be a major irritation for new users. That you see all the icons and open windows behind your canvas could be annoying. I've never understood myself why developers haven't designed a main window for Gimp yet. As far as I know Gimp is the only app that uses this non-standard interface. Are you aware that Gimpshop, now uses Photoshop-like menu structure?

The time when I choose Gimp over Photoshop is when I create special effects and textures. Here Gimp clearly bits Photoshop. Especially when you combine the filter effects with Script-fu. Of course, you can always buy extra filters for Photoshop but here I am comparing the default settings.

More control over chunks in PNG files.

What's your problem with Gimp's png output.

In terms of editing, layers, and effects... nothing beats Photoshop.

I agree.

jozsefmak

-----Original Message-----
From: gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu [mailto:gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Kent Tong
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:11 PM To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: [Gimp-user] Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop

Hi,

We're an organization promoting open source in Macau. We're considering
whether to organize some training courses on GIMP or not. Before that,
we'd like to evaluate how powerful GIMP is when compared to Photoshop.
We're not insisting that it must be as powerful as Photoshop. We just
need a clear idea on its power.

As I'm not a graphics guy, I've got a colleague to do some initial
evaluation. As my colleague has a strong photoshop background but is
just getting started with GIMP, I'd like to have the confirmation from
someone like you with strong GIMP experience. So, would you please
comment on my colleague's finding below? Thanks in advance!

Disadvantage of GIMP
- Text tool
-- Can't display Chinese in the "GIMP Text Editor" -- Can't control indivitual text format in the same Text. (The format applies to
the whole text)
-- Compare to PhotoShop, creating text effect is difficult. Photoshop built in
text effects. GIMP can only use the filter or script-fu to create effect.
-- Compare to PhotoShop, text effect will still be apply even the Text is
changed. But you need to do everything again if you text need to be changed.
-- Can't display Chinese font in the font selection list.

- Layers control
-- Can't display Chinese in the Layer. -- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define
layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No
group idea in GIMP.

On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:28:48AM +0000, Kent Tong wrote:

Thanks for all who have replied. Yes, the Chinese problem is bogus. It works as long as the LANG env variable is set.

it is interesting that the one time i saw anyone use this photoshop layers effect stuff, i was able to get TheGIMP to produce the same image in less than twenty minutes. that was using a little knowledge of computer graphics (most of which i learned by working with TheGIMP).

it gets difficult to take the people who absolutely NEED this effects thing.

it makes it look like the biggest mistake that gimp made was not to produce intellectually imbred and disfunctional people.

these people grew up in all sorts of places and came from many different kinds of humans. the one thing that causes them to be imbred like this is those layers effects. it must be the crack that Adobe sells to them.

enjoy TheGIMP, i think that even a Chinease person can learn how to make TheGIMP do the same thing.

one extremely unintelligent and rude american (me) was able to.

thanks, carol

The time when I choose Gimp over Photoshop is when I create special effects and textures. Here Gimp clearly bits Photoshop. Especially when you combine the filter effects with Script-fu. Of course, you can always buy extra filters for Photoshop but here I am comparing the default settings.

Yea I can appreciate the powering of scripting. GIMP is definately more accessible to developers and customization as well. In Photoshop, I hardly ever use filters. Layer styles give me almost everything I need... for my applications.

What's your problem with Gimp's png output.

Well I work on images for cellphone games (PNG's), and there is a lot of attention paid towards PNG chunks, transparency, filesize, etc. In terms of modifying the actual PNG data chunks I use a free tool called TweakPNG to do this. It would be nice if graphics apps like GIMP, Paintshop, or Photoshop would offer control over PNGs just like TweakPNG.

As well, reducing colours from a PNG palette by-eye is something I do daily. I use a tool called Web Image Guru to do this. It can also be accomplished in Photoshop (SaveForWeb). GIMP doesn't offer anything like it... the only way to reduce colours of an Index image is converting it to RGB then back to Index, selecting a colour limit and then letting the software try it's best to whittle the palette down (doing it by eye is better). Colour reduction matters when you need to shave off 10's or 100's of BYTES off an Indexed image (one colour removed can make the difference).

-----Original Message----- From: gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu [mailto:gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of j Mak Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 12:36 PM To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: RE: [Gimp-user] Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop

--- Kalle Ounapuu wrote:

I've been using Photoshop for a bunch of years and only recently used GIMP a few times at work.

Having access to Photoshop and being comfortable with it, I have no reason to use GIMP. The times I have used it, I was a bit annoyed by the interface... how there is no main window that contains everything. As well, some of the organization of menus seemed odd.

I also use both Photoshop and Gimp and agree that Potoshop is more user friendly.
The lack of a main window in Gimp seems to be a major irritation for new users. That you see all the icons and open windows behind your canvas could be annoying. I've never understood myself why developers haven't designed a main window for Gimp yet. As far as I know Gimp is the only app that uses this non-standard interface. Are you aware that Gimpshop, now uses Photoshop-like menu structure?

The time when I choose Gimp over Photoshop is when I create special effects and textures. Here Gimp clearly bits Photoshop. Especially when you combine the filter effects with Script-fu. Of course, you can always buy extra filters for Photoshop but here I am comparing the default settings.

More control over chunks in PNG files.

What's your problem with Gimp's png output.

In terms of editing, layers, and effects... nothing beats Photoshop.

I agree.

jozsefmak

-----Original Message-----
From: gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu [mailto:gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Kent Tong
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:11 PM To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: [Gimp-user] Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop

Hi,

We're an organization promoting open source in Macau. We're considering
whether to organize some training courses on GIMP or not. Before that,
we'd like to evaluate how powerful GIMP is when compared to Photoshop.
We're not insisting that it must be as powerful as Photoshop. We just
need a clear idea on its power.

As I'm not a graphics guy, I've got a colleague to do some initial
evaluation. As my colleague has a strong photoshop background but is
just getting started with GIMP, I'd like to have the confirmation from
someone like you with strong GIMP experience. So, would you please
comment on my colleague's finding below? Thanks in advance!

Disadvantage of GIMP
- Text tool
-- Can't display Chinese in the "GIMP Text Editor" -- Can't control indivitual text format in the same Text. (The format applies to
the whole text)
-- Compare to PhotoShop, creating text effect is difficult. Photoshop built in
text effects. GIMP can only use the filter or script-fu to create effect.
-- Compare to PhotoShop, text effect will still be apply even the Text is
changed. But you need to do everything again if you text need to be changed.
-- Can't display Chinese font in the font selection list.

- Layers control
-- Can't display Chinese in the Layer. -- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define
layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No
group idea in GIMP.

--- Carol Spears wrote:

On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:28:48AM +0000, Kent Tong wrote:

Thanks for all who have replied. Yes, the Chinese

problem is bogus. It works

as long as the LANG env variable is set.

it is interesting that the one time i saw anyone use this photoshop
layers effect stuff, i was able to get TheGIMP to produce the same image
in less than twenty minutes. that was using a little knowledge of
computer graphics (most of which i learned by working with TheGIMP).

Carol,
You are right that there are ways of working around solutions, but this is not the point. In reality, it seldom happens, if ever, that you come up with an idea, then sit down in front of your computer and realize it in one shot. Rather, artwork, even the simplest ones like web page buttons are the result of experimentation. And this is where the Adjustment layer and the layer effects come in. Using them you can experiment with various settings without changing the set up of your layer structure. In addition, you can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment layer or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't want drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off, or add other effect if I want to. By the way Macromedia Fireworks has similar tools but their implementation is totally different; they call them Live Effects. These are extremely useful tools that's why graphic artists like them; they allow an efficient and economical way of creating artwork. I think the Gimp would benefit a great deal from similar features.

Regards, jozsefmak

j Mak wrote:

Using them you
can experiment with various settings without changing the set up of your layer structure. In addition, you can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment layer or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't want drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off, or add other effect if I want to.

I'm not a PhotoShop user so please excuse the question but how does your example *not* change the setup of the layer structure?

If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I show or hide. How is that different from the "Adjustment layer" you describe? I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :)

Peace...

Tom

On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 21:59 -0700, Tom Williams wrote:

If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I show or hide. How is that different from the "Adjustment layer" you describe? I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :)

The drop shadow, I think, was just an example. What if, instead, I wanted to make a bevel depth of a button deeper? The layers wouldn't help me out, would they? In photoshop however, all I'd have to do is drag a slider!

-Gezim

Yea, that's the whole idea.

Layer effects/styles save you from having to re-create your effects all the the time... plus everything is cleaner because the "effect" is generated in real-time.

-----Original Message----- From: gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu [mailto:gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Gezim Hoxha
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 4:43 AM To: gimp user
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop

On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 21:59 -0700, Tom Williams wrote:

If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I show or hide. How is that different from the "Adjustment layer" you describe? I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :)

The drop shadow, I think, was just an example. What if, instead, I wanted to make a bevel depth of a button deeper? The layers wouldn't help me out, would they? In photoshop however, all I'd have to do is drag a slider!

-Gezim

Gezim Hoxha wrote:
>

The drop shadow, I think, was just an example. What if, instead, I wanted to make a bevel depth of a button deeper? The layers wouldn't help me out, would they? In photoshop however, all I'd have to do is drag a slider!

Gotcha. :)

Peace...

Tom

On Thursday 05 May 2005 06.16, j Mak wrote:

--- Carol Spears wrote:

On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:28:48AM +0000, Kent Tong

wrote:

Thanks for all who have replied. Yes, the Chinese

problem is bogus. It works

as long as the LANG env variable is set.

it is interesting that the one time i saw anyone use this photoshop
layers effect stuff, i was able to get TheGIMP to produce the same image
in less than twenty minutes. that was using a little knowledge of
computer graphics (most of which i learned by working with TheGIMP).

Carol,
You are right that there are ways of working around solutions, but this is not the point. In reality, it seldom happens, if ever, that you come up with an idea, then sit down in front of your computer and realize it in one shot. Rather, artwork, even the simplest ones like web page buttons are the result of experimentation. And this is where the Adjustment layer and the layer effects come in. Using them you can experiment with various settings without changing the set up of your layer structure. In addition, you can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment layer or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't want drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off, or add other effect if I want to. By the way Macromedia Fireworks has similar tools but their implementation is totally different; they call them Live Effects. These are extremely useful tools that's why graphic artists like them; they allow an efficient and economical way of creating artwork. I think the Gimp would benefit a great deal from similar features.

Regards, jozsefmak

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Thats one of the problems here:
Gimp which is fairly young is compared to an OLDtimer as Photoshop who's been around for ages!
Of course graphic artists use photoshop. Its was the only thing available a few years back with any kind of usefullness. Its the same situation as with GNU/Linux itself. It took a few years of collaborate work to get it up to (and even beyond) par with MS Windows. Gimp is developing rather rapidly and as far as i can see, steadily in the same direction. Giv it a little more time and you'll have a piece of software that will exceed even the oldie Photoshop.

In lieu of the fact that Gimp and most of the open source software is on "free time" basis, i'd say Gimp is a KILLER application. And i am sure that it will continue to develop.

Just my two cents worth...

On Wed, 4 May 2005, Kent Tong wrote:

Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 03:10:33 +0000 (UTC) From: Kent Tong
To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: [Gimp-user] Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop

Hi,

We're an organization promoting open source in Macau. We're considering whether to organize some training courses on GIMP or not. Before that, we'd like to evaluate how powerful GIMP is when compared to Photoshop.

We're not insisting that it must be as powerful as Photoshop. We just need a clear idea on its power.

I'll try and keep this factual and give you information to work with.

The scripting infrastructure and availabity of source code is a big factor in making the GNU Image Manipulation Program powerful. It is possible to do batch processing of images but usually people recommend using a tool like ImageMagick instead.

Adobe Photoshop also has scripting in the form of Actions. Actions can be recorded and played back which is quite powerful for users but developers will probably find that Script-Fu gives them more control as they can directly edit the files. (I believe they also have a Python SDK but I'm having difficulty finding it.)

One of the things I've noticed is that Adobe Photoshop (and the PSD file format) does not allow Indexed images with multiple layers. If you save to any format other than XCF you cannot be sure all features will be supported.

There is no version of Adobe Photoshop for Linux (or any Unix with the possible exception of Mac OS X depending on how you look at it) and although Adobe Photoshop version 7 has been made to work with Wine http://winehq.com there were problems getting more recent versions to work.

Many users with dual-head setups say they much prefer having seperate windows and use one screen for the image and put the palettes on a seperate window.

Some of the people who do not like how the GIMP manages windows make use of the Deweirdifyer to give them a back window (and others use Xnest, or multiple workspaces)
http://registry.gimp.org/plugin?id=3892

If you are using the GIMP on windows (and this only works on the windows version) you can get PSPI which is a plugin which allows some types of third party Adobe Photoshop plugins to work with the GIMP.

As I'm not a graphics guy, I've got a colleague to do some initial evaluation. As my colleague has a strong photoshop background but is just getting started with GIMP, I'd like to have the confirmation from someone like you with strong GIMP experience. So, would you please comment on my colleague's finding below? Thanks in advance!

Your colleague might have a more comfortable experience if he used the Photoshop style keybindings for the GIMP (replace the menurc file with the psmenurc) but in the long run that might be counterproductive if you really want to learn how to use the program.

The GimpShop project may also be of interest to your colleague but hopefully in the long run the best ideas from GimpShop will be incorporated back in to the GNU Image manipulation program. http://plasticbugs.com/index.php?p=241

-- Compare to PhotoShop, creating text effect is difficult. Photoshop built in text effects. GIMP can only use the filter or script-fu to create effect. -- Compare to PhotoShop, text effect will still be apply even the Text is changed. But you need to do everything again if you text need to be changed. -- Can't display Chinese font in the font selection list.

- Layers control
-- Can't display Chinese in the Layer. -- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No group idea in GIMP.

Some bug reports and requests relevant to Layer management

Add support for Photoshop Styles and adjustment layers http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79025

Add a 'lock' flag per layer to protect it http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61019

Add support for layer trees or layer groups http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86337

There are many suggestions in Bugzilla and if you can get your colleague to take a look at the list of open requests you should be able to a reasonably good idea of some of the features users are already asking for and perhaps recognise some of them from Adobe Photoshop.

The GIMP changes all the time. You should make sure to get the latest version (compile from CVS if possible) and install extra functionality like gimp-python or gimp-perl or the gimp animation package and extra files like gimp-help gimp-data-extra to make sure you are doing a full and fair evaluation (it could take a while).

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

One of the things I've noticed is that Adobe Photoshop (and the PSD file format) does not allow Indexed images with multiple layers. If you save to any format other than XCF you cannot be sure all features will be supported.

Amen to that! That is one thing I wished Photoshop had... saving an Indexed PSD with layers. Also support for sub-8bit Indexed mode (e.g. 2bit, 4bit, etc)... currently I only know of Paintshop Pro that can do that (though it's buggy).

Another thing I wish for Photoshop is a hard 1-pixel eraser in RGB mode (that acts just like the 1-pixel erase in Indexed mode). Bringing down square brush size to 1 and hardness to 100%, you have bleeding/softness around the area you are erasing.

-----Original Message----- From: gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu [mailto:gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Alan Horkan
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:06 AM To: Kent Tong
Cc: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop

On Wed, 4 May 2005, Kent Tong wrote:

Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 03:10:33 +0000 (UTC) From: Kent Tong
To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: [Gimp-user] Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop

Hi,

We're an organization promoting open source in Macau. We're considering whether to organize some training courses on GIMP or not. Before that, we'd like to evaluate how powerful GIMP is when compared to Photoshop.

We're not insisting that it must be as powerful as Photoshop. We just need a clear idea on its power.

I'll try and keep this factual and give you information to work with.

The scripting infrastructure and availabity of source code is a big factor in making the GNU Image Manipulation Program powerful. It is possible to do batch processing of images but usually people recommend using a tool like ImageMagick instead.

Adobe Photoshop also has scripting in the form of Actions. Actions can be recorded and played back which is quite powerful for users but developers will probably find that Script-Fu gives them more control as they can directly edit the files. (I believe they also have a Python SDK but I'm having difficulty finding it.)

One of the things I've noticed is that Adobe Photoshop (and the PSD file format) does not allow Indexed images with multiple layers. If you save to any format other than XCF you cannot be sure all features will be supported.

There is no version of Adobe Photoshop for Linux (or any Unix with the possible exception of Mac OS X depending on how you look at it) and although Adobe Photoshop version 7 has been made to work with Wine http://winehq.com there were problems getting more recent versions to work.

Many users with dual-head setups say they much prefer having seperate windows and use one screen for the image and put the palettes on a seperate window.

Some of the people who do not like how the GIMP manages windows make use of the Deweirdifyer to give them a back window (and others use Xnest, or multiple workspaces)
http://registry.gimp.org/plugin?id=3892

If you are using the GIMP on windows (and this only works on the windows version) you can get PSPI which is a plugin which allows some types of third party Adobe Photoshop plugins to work with the GIMP.

As I'm not a graphics guy, I've got a colleague to do some initial evaluation. As my colleague has a strong photoshop background but is just getting started with GIMP, I'd like to have the confirmation from someone like you with strong GIMP experience. So, would you please comment on my colleague's finding below? Thanks in advance!

Your colleague might have a more comfortable experience if he used the Photoshop style keybindings for the GIMP (replace the menurc file with the psmenurc) but in the long run that might be counterproductive if you really want to learn how to use the program.

The GimpShop project may also be of interest to your colleague but hopefully in the long run the best ideas from GimpShop will be incorporated back in to the GNU Image manipulation program. http://plasticbugs.com/index.php?p=241

-- Compare to PhotoShop, creating text effect is difficult. Photoshop built in text effects. GIMP can only use the filter or script-fu to create effect. -- Compare to PhotoShop, text effect will still be apply even the Text is changed. But you need to do everything again if you text need to be changed. -- Can't display Chinese font in the font selection list.

- Layers control
-- Can't display Chinese in the Layer. -- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No group idea in GIMP.

Some bug reports and requests relevant to Layer management

Add support for Photoshop Styles and adjustment layers http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79025

Add a 'lock' flag per layer to protect it http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61019

Add support for layer trees or layer groups http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86337

There are many suggestions in Bugzilla and if you can get your colleague to take a look at the list of open requests you should be able to a reasonably good idea of some of the features users are already asking for and perhaps recognise some of them from Adobe Photoshop.

The GIMP changes all the time. You should make sure to get the latest version (compile from CVS if possible) and install extra functionality like gimp-python or gimp-perl or the gimp animation package and extra files like gimp-help gimp-data-extra to make sure you are doing a full and fair evaluation (it could take a while).

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Thats one of the problems here:
Gimp which is fairly young is compared to an OLDtimer as Photoshop who's been around for ages!
Of course graphic artists use photoshop. Its was the only thing available a few years back with any kind of usefullness. Its the same situation as with GNU/Linux itself. It took a few years of collaborate work to get it up to (and even beyond) par with MS Windows. Gimp is developing rather rapidly and as far as i can see, steadily in the same direction. Giv it a little more time and you'll have a piece of software that will exceed even the oldie Photoshop.

In lieu of the fact that Gimp and most of the open source software is on "free time" basis, i'd say Gimp is a KILLER application. And i am sure that it will continue to develop.

Just my two cents worth... --

/Rikard

Comparing TheGIMP with Photoshop is natural, we are looking at the best of open-source vs the best of closed-source (some might suggest PSP or otherwise). People do this all the time. How is this bad? This gives the developers more ideas for improving TheGIMP.

Adobe Photoshop also has scripting in the form of Actions.

Photoshop CS now has expanded scripting capabilities (AppleScript in OSX; VBScript and JavaScript in Windows)

Cheers -joe

On 5/4/05, j Mak wrote:

I also use both Photoshop and Gimp and agree that Potoshop is more user friendly.

Interesting. I started using Photoshop in 2000. In 02 I was introduced to the gimp. I was so happy to finally find graphics software that was finally userfriendly. It has gotten to the point now where I hardly ever fireup Photoshop.

The lack of a main window in Gimp seems to be a major irritation for new users. That you see all the icons and open windows behind your canvas could be annoying. I've never understood myself why developers haven't designed a main window for Gimp yet.

I don't see why it would need one. The main window in Photoshop just is an annoyance.

As far as I know
Gimp is the only app that uses this non-standard interface.

So where is this standard interface defined?

Are you aware that Gimpshop, now uses Photoshop-like menu structure?

That's the point of Gimpshop to be more like Photoshop. Sort of a halfway between the Gimp and Photoshop. There is no reason for the Gimp to change its very logical menu structure.

In terms of editing, layers, and effects... nothing beats Photoshop.

I agree.

What exactly do y'all like better. Both have seemed comparable in functionality.

j Mak (joz_mak@yahoo.ca) wrote:

I've never understood myself why developers haven't designed a main window for Gimp yet. As far as I know Gimp is the only app that uses this non-standard interface.

Are you aware of the fact, that Photoshop on the Mac does not have such a "main window"?

Such a main window would be a major hassle for the people who want to edit images on more than two monitors, since it either has to span across both monitors, potentially with parts invisible when the two monitors have different resolutions, or limiting all their non-palette content to a single monitor.

There has been a fair amount of discussion on this topic. If you're curious you're welcome to have a look at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7379

Bye, Simon

In a nutshell, adjustment layers or layer effects are not real layers but something like virtual layers. When you modify an art object using, say an adjustment layer the original artwork remain intact at all time. The adjustments layer doesn't alter the artwork, only simulates the changes. Better, if you later want to modify the artwork just click on the adjustment layer, which brings up the dialog with the original settings that let you further modify the artwork. Otherwise, every change you introduce into the artwork, directly affects the original piece.

Hope this clarifies this layer thing.

jozsefmak

--- Tom Williams wrote:

j Mak wrote:

Using them you
can experiment with various settings without

changing

the set up of your layer structure. In addition,

you

can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment

layer

or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't

want

drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off,

or

add other effect if I want to.

I'm not a PhotoShop user so please excuse the question but how does your example
*not* change the setup of the layer structure?

If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I
show or hide. How is that different from the "Adjustment layer" you describe?
I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :)

Peace...

Tom

Thanks for the information. This was new to me.

Regards, jozsefmak

--- Simon Budig wrote:

j Mak (joz_mak@yahoo.ca) wrote:

I've never understood myself why developers

haven't

designed a main window for Gimp yet. As far as I

know

Gimp is the only app that uses this non-standard interface.

Are you aware of the fact, that Photoshop on the Mac does not
have such a "main window"?

Such a main window would be a major hassle for the people who want
to edit images on more than two monitors, since it either has to span
across both monitors, potentially with parts invisible when the two
monitors have different resolutions, or limiting all their non-palette
content to a single monitor.

There has been a fair amount of discussion on this topic. If you're
curious you're welcome to have a look at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7379

Bye, Simon

On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 11:26:22PM +0800, Joe Ngo wrote:

Comparing TheGIMP with Photoshop is natural, we are looking at the best of open-source vs the best of closed-source (some might suggest PSP or otherwise). People do this all the time. How is this bad? This gives the developers more ideas for improving TheGIMP.

Adobe Photoshop also has scripting in the form of Actions.

Photoshop CS now has expanded scripting capabilities (AppleScript in OSX; VBScript and JavaScript in Windows)

that is pretty good. i think they have had access to VBScript for only about a year. TheGIMP will never work with VBScript that quickly.

how long has Adobe had legal access to AppleScript and to JavaScript in windows?

carol

Simon Budig wrote:

Are you aware of the fact, that Photoshop on the Mac does not have such a "main window"?

Hmmm... *me looks at some Mac/PS screen shots* Interesting.

I never noticed that. But doesn't it still behave as one instance of the program when flipping between programs (i.e., essentially like the Windows version)?

On Linux, I have no problem using a desktop solely for the Gimp, but on Windows (at work) I end up using a multi-desktop switcher to keep windows from getting out of hand (in numbers). Unfortunately, all the multi-desktop switcher programs I've tried (VirtuaWin, MegaScale MultiDesktop Manager, & MS Virtual Desktop Manager) are a tad buggy and/or don't implement as well as the Unix model of multiple desktops.

On Thursday 05 May 2005 12:17, Kalle Ounapuu wrote:

One of the things I've noticed is that Adobe Photoshop (and the PSD file format) does not allow Indexed images with multiple layers. If you save to any format other than XCF you cannot be sure all features will be supported.

Amen to that! That is one thing I wished Photoshop had... saving an Indexed PSD with layers. Also support for sub-8bit Indexed mode (e.g. 2bit, 4bit, etc)... currently I only know of Paintshop Pro that can do that (though it's buggy).

Nobody have asked, that I recall, saving in indexed formats with 2 and 4 bit.

This is not hard to do code in the GIMP PNG and maybe some other format. (bmp, or tiff)

Do you need this feature?

Another thing I wish for Photoshop is a hard 1-pixel eraser in RGB mode (that acts just like the 1-pixel erase in Indexed mode). Bringing down square brush size to 1 and hardness to 100%, you have bleeding/softness around the area you are erasing.

Eric P wrote:

On Linux, I have no problem using a desktop solely for the Gimp, but on Windows (at work) I end up using a multi-desktop switcher to keep windows from getting out of hand (in numbers). Unfortunately, all the multi-desktop switcher programs I've tried (VirtuaWin, MegaScale MultiDesktop Manager, & MS Virtual Desktop Manager) are a tad buggy and/or don't implement as well as the Unix model of multiple desktops.

Sounds like you should write some feature requests for these Managers then.

Michael

On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 09:38 -0700, Carol Spears wrote:

On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:28:48AM +0000, Kent Tong wrote:

Thanks for all who have replied. Yes, the Chinese problem is bogus. It works as long as the LANG env variable is set.

it is interesting that the one time i saw anyone use this photoshop layers effect stuff, i was able to get TheGIMP to produce the same image in less than twenty minutes. that was using a little knowledge of computer graphics (most of which i learned by working with TheGIMP).

The key difference is that effects or effect layers give the power to easily change things after they have been done. Nothing is set in stone. The changes are non-destructive giving the freedom to change things in future.

This is especially useful when presenting things to clients, which by nature want to change things no matter what you present them :). Larry was also able to draw the Linux penguin without features like layers, yet I'm sure he would have been happy beaing able to make use of them.

It's not that things are not achievable. Non-destructive workflows are in my view a very useful functionality worth investigating.

cheers

On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 21:59 -0700, Tom Williams wrote:

j Mak wrote:

Using them you
can experiment with various settings without changing the set up of your layer structure. In addition, you can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment layer or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't want drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off, or add other effect if I want to.

I'm not a PhotoShop user so please excuse the question but how does your example *not* change the setup of the layer structure?

If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I show or hide. How is that different from the "Adjustment layer" you describe? I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :)

Hi Tom!
The dropshadow effect layer would simply take the alpha mask of the parent layer and apply the blur on that dynamically. So when in GIMP you would have to recreate the dropshadow manually each time you draw on the above layer, with a dynamic dropshadow effect layer, you would get that done automatically.

Imagine you would create a set of filters applied on a layer - fill with pattern with "keep transparency" on, apply displacement map based on blurred copy of the alpha channel, applied bumpmap. And now imagine that sequence being applied every time you paint on a layer automatically.

Hope that gives you an idea how layer effects can be useful.

cheers

Yea it's a very uncommon thing, but I am working with J2ME apps for mobile phones. Part of making an app smaller in filesize or take less memory on a mobile device is to optimize images and explore different image types. Some apps we've come across have code that specifically needs something like an image to be e.g. "2-bit grayscale" in order for something to happen (or another example having to do with palettes... that it requires colour "3,3,3" to be in position 4 of the palette).

I would appreciate sub-8bit support in GIMP... it would definately be a reason for me to use the program more often.

Not many people would need this kind of stuff tho =).

-----Original Message----- From: gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu [mailto:gimp-user-bounces@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu]On Behalf Of Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:13 PM To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop

On Thursday 05 May 2005 12:17, Kalle Ounapuu wrote:

One of the things I've noticed is that Adobe Photoshop (and the PSD file format) does not allow Indexed images with multiple layers. If you save to any format other than XCF you cannot be sure all features will be supported.

Amen to that! That is one thing I wished Photoshop had... saving an Indexed PSD with layers. Also support for sub-8bit Indexed mode (e.g. 2bit, 4bit, etc)... currently I only know of Paintshop Pro that can do that (though it's buggy).

Nobody have asked, that I recall, saving in indexed formats with 2 and 4 bit.

This is not hard to do code in the GIMP PNG and maybe some other format. (bmp, or tiff)

Do you need this feature?

Another thing I wish for Photoshop is a hard 1-pixel eraser in RGB mode (that acts just like the 1-pixel erase in Indexed mode). Bringing down square brush size to 1 and hardness to 100%, you have bleeding/softness around the area you are erasing.

On Mon, May 09, 2005 at 03:08:08AM +0000, Kent Tong wrote:

Carol Spears gimp.org> writes:

-- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No group idea in GIMP.

it is interesting that photoshop is considered to have better layers control than gimp. if you use gimp more you will see who has the real control of them.

Let's take an example. If in an image there are there is a toolbar at the top of it and some icons in a panel at the bottom. In Photoshop, one would have one layer for each tool in the toolbar and then group them to form a toolbar. Similarly, one would have one layer for each icon and then group them to form the panel. The benefit is, one can say move the whole toolbar or the panel easily.

the only examples i have are the art i was able to make with TheGIMP for all of these years. if you could provide for me how this layers thing you ask for would improve this. perhaps it would improve my photography. the best way to approach this is to show what the current users can gain.

if you can show me an example of some gimp art that could have been improved with this enhancement you ask for, it would be easier to understand your need.

carol

Eric P wrote:

On Linux, I have no problem using a desktop solely for the Gimp, but on Windows (at work) I end up using a multi-desktop switcher to keep windows from getting out of hand (in numbers). Unfortunately, all the multi-desktop switcher programs I've tried (VirtuaWin, MegaScale MultiDesktop Manager, & MS Virtual Desktop Manager) are a tad buggy and/or don't implement as well as the Unix model of multiple desktops.

Yeah, on Windows the multidesktop is a waste of time. I've got it installed here and have used it once to try it out. I remember when I originally found out about it, I was quite excited about getting some Linux functionality back, but not so. As with everything Windows, it just works (oh, I love the double meaning of that slogan - why has nobody else picked up on it yet!?). Another curious thing: when I moved to Linux I found that immediately stopped using the desktop to store shortcuts or files. Now I'm using Windows again the desktop's filled back up.

The point of all this is that Windows works in quite a different way to Linux, so its users, to get the most out of the system, also work in a different way. This is why they're always clamouring for MDI. Despite its major drawbacks it's still better than relying on Windows's own manager. In that sense, it *is* an improvement, but only for Windows users. Oh well, since this is primarily for Linux, maybe they should try a live CD.

I think there is another way that can make the best of all worlds and I'll submit to bugzilla when I've finished working on it.