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The GIMP Foundation Daniel Rogers 08 Mar 15:58
  The GIMP Foundation Dave Neary 08 Mar 17:08
   The GIMP Foundation Kelly Martin 08 Mar 17:25
  The GIMP Foundation Nathan Carl Summers 08 Mar 22:18
   The GIMP Foundation Kelly Martin 08 Mar 22:29
   The GIMP Foundation Sven Neumann 08 Mar 22:38
    The GIMP Foundation Nathan Carl Summers 09 Mar 00:03
    The GIMP Foundation Kelly Martin 09 Mar 06:09
     The GIMP Foundation Branko Collin 09 Mar 12:27
     The GIMP Foundation Alan Horkan 09 Mar 15:06
    The GIMP Foundation Dave Neary 09 Mar 13:23
   The GIMP Foundation Daniel Rogers 09 Mar 17:59
  The GIMP Foundation Henrik Brix Andersen 09 Mar 12:05
The GIMP Foundation Daniel Rogers 08 Mar 18:12
Daniel Rogers
2004-03-08 15:58:13 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

Hello again,

It has been awhile since I have done a GIMP Foundation update. There is quite a bit that must be decided on at this point. Also, people need to decide how invovled they would like to be.

Summary: My Goals,
Benefits of incorporation
responsibilites of those invovled
things to be decided
looking for help
What the organization can do

MY GOALS First off, let me go over several of my personal goals for The GIMP and then I will try and show now TGF can be used to develop these goals.

My goals for The GIMP really boil down to three things. First, I really want to see The GIMP to be a household name for professional image editors. Second, I want to the GIMP as easy as possible for volunteers to contribute to. Third, I want to be able to turn The GIMP into a real, paid, career for a team of people, including myself.

As such I have been trying to further these goals by creating TGF, soliciting funding, and trying to come up with ways of using that funding to further these goals.

Let me make perfectly clear that my important priority is to make sure that our existing volunteer developers are, in no way, givin any additional responsibilites or risks that he/she did not ask for. I do not want (nor do I think it is possible) to try and "control" or "be in charge" of our existing volunteer developers. No one, though my actions or those of The GIMP Foundation, will be required to perform any duties, or have any additional responsibities placed on them without his/her consent.

What I want is to create an organization that can handle many of the details that do not interest a casual (or even not-so-casual) volunteer. There are quite a few things that could be done to increase the popularity of The GIMP that could be done easier under the organization of TGF. Marketing, making contacts, hiring employees, solicting donations, etc. are all difficult and valuable activities that could benefit all the developers, including the volunteer ones. I want to put in place means to increase oppurtunites for all of our developers. Increasing our userbase, attracting developers, attracting corporations interested in The GIMP will undoubtably lead to more and better opportunites for existing developers.

BENEFITS OF INCORPORATION Presumably, I could handle all of these things myself, without creating a legal entity to do so. However, the existance of The GIMP Foundation has several legal benefits:
1) The GIMP Foundation can enter into contracts and acquire loans and, as long as the Directors act in Good Faith (and follow some fairly simple rules) cannot be held liable for any actions of TGF. This means that if TGF enters into a contract with a corporation (such as accepting a donation to finish a certain feature in The GIMP) and 50% of the way though the feature the corporation decides they want their money back, the individual directors and members hold no personal responsibility to pay back that corporation.
2) TGF can offer tax deductable donations. 3) We become qualified for Federal, state, and private grants.

The first provision above is probably the most important. It means that if you follow the rules, there is no risk (other than the time you put into the organization) to running it. It also means that TGF can enter into contracts with people like Mark Shuttleworth and the individual members, directors and officers are not at risk of losing any personal funds.

RESPONSIBILITES OF THOSE INVOVLED

Non-profits have to have certain organizational structers. There must be a board of directors. The board has the power to enter into major business dealings, decides what to do with assets, and has to the power to hire officers. The officers handle the day to day business of the corporation. However, being invovled with The GIMP Foundation means you will be held to certain responsibilities.

If you are a board member you must: Attend board meetings.
Vote on specific issues.
Avoid conflict of interest.
Avoid self-dealing.
Be honest.
Be careful with the funds of the Foundation. fufill any other specific duties outlined in the bylaws.

Board members have the power to: Enter into contracts in the name of TGF. make finantial decisions about the future of The GIMP. hire officers.

Officers are empowered to handle the day to day decisions of the board. They are not normally empowered to enter into major business dealings, and the board is responsible for their actions. They must also fufill any responsibilites outlined in the bylaws.

In addition, 51% of the board members have to be disinterested. (this means they or anyone related to them cannot be compensated by TGF for other than as a director). I.e. 51% of board members have to be volunteer. Also there are no residency or age requirements on any of these positions. (though the board members should be at least 18 so that they have the ability to enter into contracts).

A non-profit may or may not have members. Members (in the legal sense) have specific voting rights and privledges. If a membership exists, they elect and remove directors, amend bylaws and articles, approve mergers and consolidations, and approve the sale of corporate assets. Note that just because the corporation doesn't have voting members, it doesn't mean it can't have informal members (aka patrons) that support the organization but are not granted any specific voting rights. In the event you don't have members, then the board has the power to vote on the above decisions. Members can be granted additional privledges in the bylaws.

THINGS TO BE DECIDED

Given the above, which is all stuff required by law, I am having a lawyer draft up some inital bylaws, which we can then modify for our own purposes. Most of the technical details can be left till after we have some draft bylaws. However, we need to decide a few things rather more immediately, as my lawyer is asking me to answer these questions.

1. Will TGF have members? I am talking about members with voting privledges, like I described above. (my vote is yes, btw) 2. Should the membership be paid? (my vote is yes, for like $50 a year or some toher small amount. It helps for tax purposes). 3. Should the membership have additional rights?

LOOKING FOR HELP

It would be useful to know who is interested in accepting the responsibilites of being a board member (or officer). If we have members you will need to be voted in. If we don't have members the board will vote you in, all of this will be using the rules describe in the bylaws, which, again, are not written yet.

WHAT THE ORGANIZATION CAN DO

Here are a few of the things, that given the oppurtunity and funds I would like to do with TGF. I am copying this directly from a private mail I sent to Mark Shuttleworth.

What exactly The GIMP team (and thus The GIMP Foundation) would do with funding made available to them would depend exactly on how much we had. I said this before but now I want to be much more specific:

up to $20,000 Using this amount, we would pay for our developer's conference. We use these to plan our next version and they always result in a lot of extra ideas and work from our volunteers, especially after the conference, when everyone goes home.

$20,000 to $65,000 In addition to paying for our developer conference, we could use this amount to set up bounties. Several developers have expressed interest in bounty style work, even when they were not interested in full time GIMP work.

$65,000 to $85,000 This amount is just right for a developer for about a year. (with anything leftover going to pay for our developers conference). A developer is, by leaps and bounds, the most worth while investment we can make. Having a single full time developer will: -Drastically cut down on our development times (by 30% or more). -Allow that developer to leverage his current employment to find other contributors willing to pay his salary (or find someone to hire more developers). A full time developer can easily show to other organizations who are interested in The GIMP (there are many) how valuable a full time developer can be to them. -Become more aggressive in recruiting corporate partners. Often this takes time, attention, and contacts. Only with someone working full time on this, are these sorts of tasks possible. -Create the structures in The GIMP Foundation for: accepting more donations, working with businesses and individuals to fulfill their GIMP needs, and educating the world about The GIMP.

$85,000 or more More than $85,000, and we can begin to repeat this cycle. More conferences, more bounties, and more developers. Rather large amounts of money (by our project's standards, anyway), open up quite a few other possibilities. -Creating course curriculum designed to teach graphic designers and artists how to use The GIMP (I already have someone in mind for this, even). -Get The GIMP installers on CD and have that CD included with major graphics and movie magazines. -Get the GIMP in bookstores, next to the register (like AOL, only better!). -Get another book or two written for The GIMP (a graphic design book with examples from The GIMP, rather than a gimp specific book). -Hire GNOME user interface usability testers to test The GIMP. -Create a build farm for nightly builds of The GIMP. -Recruit graphic designers and teachers to evangelize The GIMP. -Create contests (with rewards) for developing GIMP artwork.

--I am sure I can think of more

In any case, if it wasn't clear before, I want people to know that by lending vocal support to TGF, you are not pledging any responsibility, nor are you at any finantial risk. I cannot do this without the support of the developers. If I do not speak for you, then there is no point for me to continue.

--
Daniel S. Rogers
dsrogers@gimp.org

Dave Neary
2004-03-08 17:08:33 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

Daniel Rogers wrote:

Avoid self-dealing.

What's this?

Be honest.

Is this true of every board? Even Halliburton?

1. Will TGF have members? I am talking about members with voting privledges, like I described above. (my vote is yes, btw)

Yes.

2. Should the membership be paid? (my vote is yes, for like $50 a year or some toher small amount. It helps for tax purposes).

Why not - this is also common in France. That means setting up paypal I guess... Although the GNOME foundation have a membership policy which fits in better with the Open Source model - there is a membership committee, which considers applications for membership on a case-by-case basis based on participation in the community. Membership is reconsidered every 3 years, and is free.

3. Should the membership have additional rights?

Aside from voting in the board? Meh...

It would be useful to know who is interested in accepting the responsibilites of being a board member (or officer).

Me. But a board can only work if the developers and the board work together towards the same goals, so to speak. If the board and the developers are in conflict, it'll bomb, or it'll be a PR disaster.

Cheers, Dave.

Kelly Martin
2004-03-08 17:25:39 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

Dave Neary wrote:

Daniel Rogers wrote:

Avoid self-dealing.

What's this?

Self-dealing is whenever the people who control the organization command the organization to do business with themselves in their personal capacity. Self-dealing "tears the veil" and makes the director or officer who engages in it personally liable for the corporation's debt by creating the presumption that the corporation is an "alter ego" of the individual. In the case of a non-profit, it also violates the rule against private inurement.

It means, inter alia, that the directors of the non-profit cannot also receive money from it except possibly a small stipend and reimbursement of their expenses in attending board meetings and other organization functions. Being a member of the board of a non-profit organization is charity work: you generally cannot expect to get paid.

If you're looking to get a job with the GIMP Foundation, you can't also be a member of its board of directors (except as an ex-officio member, which the Executive Director typically would be). This doesn't mean that the Foundation can't hire staff, just that those staff can't be the ones making the ultimate decisions on how to spend the organization's money. Staff can recommend, but final approval of at least the general budget has to be by the volunteer board. To do otherwise risks a finding that the organization inures to the benefit of a private party, which destroys non-profit status.

I'm very interested in the idea of a Foundation and would love to be a part of one, but I have no expectation of it turning into a personal revenue stream.

Kelly

Daniel Rogers
2004-03-08 18:12:08 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

On Mar 8, 2004, at 8:25 AM, Kelly Martin wrote:

Dave Neary wrote:

Daniel Rogers wrote:

Avoid self-dealing.

What's this?

Self-dealing is whenever the people who control the organization command the organization to do business with themselves in their personal capacity. Self-dealing "tears the veil" and makes the director or officer who engages in it personally liable for the corporation's debt by creating the presumption that the corporation is an "alter ego" of the individual. In the case of a non-profit, it also violates the rule against private inurement.

this is true, but it deals more directly with, as a board member, arranging a deal between The GIMP foundation and a board member. Self-dealing is when, for example, you own some property that you wish to sell to TGF and you are on TGF board. You have to do some full disclousure, follow very specific rules, and making too much money is frowned upon. Really it is not so much about avoidance (but that helps) as much as it is about following the rules. California and the US are very picky about making sure that non-profits are not used as a vehical to profit the board members.

It means, inter alia, that the directors of the non-profit cannot also receive money from it except possibly a small stipend and reimbursement of their expenses in attending board meetings and other organization functions. Being a member of the board of a non-profit organization is charity work: you generally cannot expect to get paid.

this is not true, actually. 51% of the members have to be "disinterested." It means that 51% of the board members cannot themselves or anyone related to them be paid (except the stipend and compensation you mentioned). Related, here, has a very specific definition. It means that if there are four board members, and I am getting paid to hack on gegl by TGF, then none of the other board members can get paid. It also means that if I hire my wife to do some work, then I am "interested" and no one else (or their relatives) on a four person board can get paid.

If you're looking to get a job with the GIMP Foundation, you can't also be a member of its board of directors (except as an ex-officio member, which the Executive Director typically would be). This doesn't mean that the Foundation can't hire staff, just that those staff can't be the ones making the ultimate decisions on how to spend the organization's money.

Again, this is _not_ true. More than half must be volunteer though.

Staff can recommend, but final approval of at least the general budget has to be by the volunteer board.

This bit is true, except that the board must simply be more than half volunteer.

To do otherwise risks a finding that the organization inures to the benefit of a private party, which destroys non-profit status.

There are of course, other ways to destroy non-profit status, such as getting too much regular funding from a single source.

I'm very interested in the idea of a Foundation and would love to be a part of one, but I have no expectation of it turning into a personal revenue stream.

Again, if you are a board member, you could get a job with TGF. But seeing how TGF, at this point, is not exactly handing out jobs, I would agree with this sentiment.

--
Dan

Nathan Carl Summers
2004-03-08 22:18:33 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Daniel Rogers wrote:

Hello again,

It has been awhile since I have done a GIMP Foundation update. There is quite a bit that must be decided on at this point. Also, people need to decide how invovled they would like to be.

My goals for The GIMP really boil down to three things. First, I really want to see The GIMP to be a household name for professional image editors. Second, I want to the GIMP as easy as possible for volunteers to contribute to. Third, I want to be able to turn The GIMP into a real, paid, career for a team of people, including myself.

I would add usability for all and ease-of-getting started for new and casual users to the list of gimp goals.

If you are a board member you must: Attend board meetings.

Is this required to be in person, or is conference call/irc/email/etc sufficient? Furthermore, is it possible for board members to be reimbursed for expenses? I can see this being a major obstacle for non-us residents otherwise.

WHAT THE ORGANIZATION CAN DO

Here are a few of the things, that given the oppurtunity and funds I would like to do with TGF.

In my mind one of the major reasons to have a Gimp Foundation is to put all of our IP ducks in a row. As I've said before I don't think that having contributors sign over copyright to TGF would be the best plan. Instead, I would like to see the ability to give TGF power-of-attorney to sue copyright violators in their behalf.

Rockwalrus

Kelly Martin
2004-03-08 22:29:25 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

Nathan Carl Summers wrote:

If you are a board member you must: Attend board meetings.

Is this required to be in person, or is conference call/irc/email/etc sufficient? Furthermore, is it possible for board members to be reimbursed for expenses? I can see this being a major obstacle for non-us residents otherwise.

Most states require that such meetings take place "so that all present may hear one another". This permits conference calls, but excludes IRC and email.

Instead, I would like to see the ability to give TGF power-of-attorney to sue copyright violators in their behalf.

That's a touchy area. Copyright law in the United States requires that a suit to enforce copyright be brought "in the name of the party in interest". (The RIAA is running into problems with this because they're not the "party in interest" of any of the copyrights they're suing on.) There really isn't a good way around the assignment issue.

Kelly

Sven Neumann
2004-03-08 22:38:07 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

Hi,

Nathan Carl Summers writes:

In my mind one of the major reasons to have a Gimp Foundation is to put all of our IP ducks in a row. As I've said before I don't think that having contributors sign over copyright to TGF would be the best plan. Instead, I would like to see the ability to give TGF power-of-attorney to sue copyright violators in their behalf.

Does IP mean what I think it means? Let's hope it doesn't because there simply is no such thing as intellectual property. Knowledge must not belong to anyone.

If sueing copyright violators is the main goal, I'd rather let the Free Software Foundation do this job. It is probably in a lot better position when it should ever come to a law-suit. Also, so far the FSF has done a great job at funding our developer conferences. So we should really have good reasons to form our own foundation since I don't expect the FSF to grant any more fundings as soon as The GIMP Foundation has been created. This is not a vote against the TGF; it's just something to keep in mind...

Sven

Nathan Carl Summers
2004-03-09 00:03:17 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

On 8 Mar 2004, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

Nathan Carl Summers writes:

In my mind one of the major reasons to have a Gimp Foundation is to put all of our IP ducks in a row. As I've said before I don't think that having contributors sign over copyright to TGF would be the best plan. Instead, I would like to see the ability to give TGF power-of-attorney to sue copyright violators in their behalf.

Does IP mean what I think it means? Let's hope it doesn't because there simply is no such thing as intellectual property. Knowledge must not belong to anyone.

I believe that intellectual property is a natural right, but should be limited in scope for the same kind of reasons that you are not allowed to invite someone onto your property and then kill them, even though you own the weapon and the land. More specifically, I think that the number of years copyrights last should be counted on one hand, and that if you have access to software, you should have access to its source.

I could go on with more detail about my views about copyrights and patents, but that is really offtopic for this list.

I agree with RMS that lumping several somewhat dissimilar aspects of law together under the same title can lead to confusion, but in this case, it causes no confusion, since the gimp foundation should indeed hold all gimp related copyrights, trademarks, and patents. GIMP can't have trade secrets, obviously. And a service mark might be more appropriate than a trademark; i dunno. Having a patent or two for protection might be pragmatic, even though I think that software patents are stupid.

If sueing copyright violators is the main goal, I'd rather let the Free Software Foundation do this job. It is probably in a lot better position when it should ever come to a law-suit.

Well, the FSF cannot sue unless it has copyright assignment from us, and I don't think we can really do a credible job unless it gets assignment at least from Spencer, Peter, Sven, and Mitch. (All other substantial contributors are also listed here, your eyes just skip over them every time you read the list :)

Also, so far the FSF has done a great job at funding our developer conferences. So we should really have good reasons to form our own foundation since I don't expect the FSF to grant any more fundings as soon as The GIMP Foundation has been created. This is not a vote against the TGF; it's just something to keep in mind...

Perhaps we should bring the FSF into the discussion. We are, after all, an official GNU project, even though FSF gives us complete autonomy.

Rockwalrus

Kelly Martin
2004-03-09 06:09:51 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

Sven Neumann wrote:

If sueing copyright violators is the main goal, I'd rather let the Free Software Foundation do this job. It is probably in a lot better position when it should ever come to a law-suit.

The FSF can't sue someone unless it owns at least some part of the code in question. The FSF's solution to this has been to seek assignment of copyright. Do you want to assign the GIMP copyrights to the FSF?

Kelly

Henrik Brix Andersen
2004-03-09 12:05:44 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

Hello,

First of all I'd like to thank Daniel for putting a lot of work into investigating what needs to be done in order to launch The GIMP Foundation.

On Mon, 2004-03-08 at 15:58, Daniel Rogers wrote:

THINGS TO BE DECIDED

[snip]

1. Will TGF have members? I am talking about members with voting privledges, like I described above. (my vote is yes, btw)

Yes, if we decide to form TGF I believe we should allow the foundation to have members.

2. Should the membership be paid? (my vote is yes, for like $50 a year or some toher small amount. It helps for tax purposes).

How does paid membership help for tax purposes? What exactly will the benefit of paid membership be?

3. Should the membership have additional rights?

Such as...?

Sincerely,
Brix

Branko Collin
2004-03-09 12:27:55 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

On 8 Mar 2004, at 23:09, Kelly Martin wrote:

Sven Neumann wrote:

If sueing copyright violators is the main goal, I'd rather let the Free Software Foundation do this job. It is probably in a lot better position when it should ever come to a law-suit.

The FSF can't sue someone unless it owns at least some part of the code in question. The FSF's solution to this has been to seek assignment of copyright.
Do you want to assign the GIMP copyrights to the FSF?

Sven cannot assign _all_ GIMP copyrights to the FSF, since he does not own them. He can, however, assign _his_ copyrights to the FSF (as can anybody else, for that matter).

(This is undoubtedly what you meant, I am just stressing it to clarify.)

Dave Neary
2004-03-09 13:23:16 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

Hi all,

Sven Neumann wrote:

Also, so far the FSF
has done a great job at funding our developer conferences. So we should really have good reasons to form our own foundation since I don't expect the FSF to grant any more fundings as soon as The GIMP Foundation has been created. This is not a vote against the TGF; it's just something to keep in mind...

I don't see why this should be the case, unless we have a sufficient revenu stream to fund ourselves. In any case, to have any revenu at all we need an organisation and a bank account, since a private individual accepting donations for a non-existent organisation isn't very professional or reassuring, never mind the fact that it opens up, as Dan said, channels of liability for the individual involved.

Cheers,
Dave.

Alan Horkan
2004-03-09 15:06:50 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Kelly Martin wrote:

Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:09:51 -0600 From: Kelly Martin
To: Sven Neumann
Cc: Nathan Carl Summers ,
gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation

Sven Neumann wrote:

If sueing copyright violators is the main goal, I'd rather let the Free Software Foundation do this job. It is probably in a lot better position when it should ever come to a law-suit.

The FSF can't sue someone unless it owns at least some part of the code in question. The FSF's solution to this has been to seek assignment of copyright. Do you want to assign the GIMP copyrights to the FSF?

I can tell you that although the FSF much prefer to have some ownership of the code it is not an absolute necessity and that as it is in their interest to defend the GPL they have been very helpful to projects that did not fall directly under their banner. Just ask Bradley Kunh.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

Daniel Rogers
2004-03-09 17:59:31 UTC (about 20 years ago)

The GIMP Foundation

Nathan Carl Summers wrote:

Is this required to be in person, or is conference call/irc/email/etc sufficient? Furthermore, is it possible for board members to be reimbursed for expenses? I can see this being a major obstacle for non-us residents otherwise.

Kelly already answered the first part, but yes. If TGF has money, it's board members can be reimbursed for the expenses of attending a meeting (including phone bills, even), without destroying it's non-profit status.

-- Dan