To C.R.: I think your proposed change to the download page (adding"93 MB" just above the download button for GIMP for Windows) is easy, simple, and clear. I recommend it highly!

We used to list the file size on the download buttons. Apparently the feature didn't get added to the new web layout (which is much better than our old one in almost every way possible) I'm sure it's just an oversight.

To Alex: What do I suggest you do about it? I thought that the features

of the latest version of Photoshop could be listed and tried, and any features that anyone likes in any other programs, as well as original ideas, and that GIMP could be presented so that even the relatively inexperienced (like me!) could easily and quickly understand that those useful features are available, what they are, and how to find and conveniently use them.

Where on the Adobe website does it list the features of Photoshop compared to GIMP?
GIMP is not made to be competition with Photoshop, and conversely, Photoshop is not made to be in competition with GIMP. They are both highly sophisticated image editors, but they are different programs. They are simply built for similar purposes.This is why you will not see a feature-comparison done on either website.

Since you are new to both programs, I recommend GIMP. The time you would spend learning Photoshop is about the same as the time it takes to learn GIMP.

For your effort, get these advantages: 1. You get a software application that will dutifully serve your photo-editing needs, for free, for both professional and hobbyist uses without limitation.
2. You get free updates, and will never have to pay any money for GIMP. 3. You will never be bothered by license keys that run out, or other software imposed DRM protection that gets in the way of your work. 4. You will be able to work on any Desktop OS you choose, be it Linux, Mac, or Windows, giving you the freedom to choose your working environment and take your tools with you if you decide to switch. 5. You will have a program that you can modify and re-program for your own needs when you become an advanced user. 6. You can teach and learn graphic design, and photo editing without requiring your student(s) or teacher(s) to buy and install locked-down and expensive proprietary software, or buy software subscriptions. 7. You can participate in a friendly and helpful community that spans many FOSS (Free and Open Source Software) application projects. Many of whom will seem like family after a while. :) 8. You will produce graphics in a construction format (.xcf) that can be given to and edited by anyone using GIMP, for free. 9. You can get live help with your problems on irc channels, and mailing lists, and get to speak to the developers and other contributors to the project.

Additionally, there are numerous forums all over the internet full of happy GIMP users, and tons of books, manuals, and videos devoted to doing everything you would like to (both novice and professional) using GIMP.

So, welcome to the community. :) I recommend starting here:
http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/

Good luck, and if you have questions, feel free to message me directly. I'll point you in the right direction. -C

I wasn't specific because I certainly don't know everything about either well-known program! I've found a 653-page GIMP user manual, which took forever to download on this borrowed old Mac laptop. I was in too much of a hurry to read more than about a page of it. I couldn't find a link that would allow me to copy and save the manual file so I might be able to look at it later, after I have to return the laptop and when I can't get an Internet connection. (Since the laptop got wet (before I borrowed it), the screen and image files appear
in very startling and frequently changing colors! This makes it even more of a challenge to get good results from image editing very quickly.) ____________________________________________________________ Places You'll See
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Hi all,

my email to the list did not arrive, so I'm sending it again while excluding all hyperlinks.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

Hi C R!

See below for my response:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:26:14 +0100 C R wrote:

To C.R.: I think your proposed change to the download page (adding"93 MB" just above the download button for GIMP for Windows) is easy, simple, and clear. I recommend it highly!

We used to list the file size on the download buttons. Apparently the feature didn't get added to the new web layout (which is much better than our old one in almost every way possible) I'm sure it's just an oversight.

To Alex: What do I suggest you do about it? I thought that the features

of the latest version of Photoshop could be listed and tried, and any features that anyone likes in any other programs, as well as original ideas, and that GIMP could be presented so that even the relatively inexperienced (like me!) could easily and quickly understand that those useful features are available, what they are, and how to find and conveniently use them.

Where on the Adobe website does it list the features of Photoshop compared to GIMP?
GIMP is not made to be competition with Photoshop, and conversely, Photoshop is not made to be in competition with GIMP. They are both highly sophisticated image editors, but they are different programs. They are simply built for similar purposes.This is why you will not see a feature-comparison done on either website.

Well, it seems that "Joel on Software" has recommended the opposite approach (and I tend to agree with him) here:

Quoting from it:

< QUOTE >

When you're trying to get people to switch from a competitor to your product, you need to understand barriers to entry, and you need to understand them a lot better than you think, or people won't switch and you'll be waiting tables.

In an earlier letter, I wrote about the difference between two kinds of companies: the Ben and Jerry's kind of company which is trying to take over from established competition, versus the Amazon.com kind of company which is trying a "land grab" in a new field where there is no established competition. When I worked on Microsoft Excel in the early 90's, it was a card-carrying member of the Ben and Jerry's camp. Lotus 123, the established competitor, had an almost complete monopoly in the market for spreadsheets. Sure, there were new users buying computers who started out with Excel, but for the most part, if Microsoft wanted to sell spreadsheets, they were going to have to get people to switch.

The most important thing to do when you're in this position is to admit it. Some companies can't even do this. The management at my last employer, Juno, was unwilling to admit that AOL had already achieved a dominant position. They spoke of the "millions of people not yet online." They said that "in every market, there is room for two players: Time and Newsweek, Coke and Pepsi, etc." The only thing they wouldn't say is "we have to get people to switch away from AOL." I'm not sure what they were afraid of. Perhaps they thought they were afraid to "wake up the sleeping bear". When one of Juno's star programmers (no, not me) had the chutzpah, the unmitigated gall to ask a simple question at a company meeting: "Why aren't we doing more to get AOL users to switch?" they hauled him off, screamed at him for an hour, and denied him a promotion he had been promised. (Guess who took his talent elsewhere?)

There's nothing wrong with being in a market that has established competition. In fact, even if your product is radically new, like eBay, you probably have competition: garage sales! Don't stress too much. If your product is better in some way, you actually have a pretty good chance of getting people to switch. But you have to think strategically about it, and thinking strategically means thinking one step beyond the obvious.

< END OF QUOTE >

Like it or not - GIMP is an alternative program to (and in much the same niche as) Adobe Photoshop. We should be aiming to make people use GIMP (or a different open-source program) instead of or at least in addition to Photoshop. So let's stop beating around the bush and admit it.

Now, if Photoshop were FOSS and ran fine on
most common open source OSes, then it wouldn't be a major issue. But it's proprietary software, and runs only on Windows and Mac OS X, and costs a lot of money, and has many other issues that you mentioned below, and so the situation is not ideal.

Since you are new to both programs, I recommend GIMP. The time you would spend learning Photoshop is about the same as the time it takes to learn GIMP.

For your effort, get these advantages: 1. You get a software application that will dutifully serve your photo-editing needs, for free, for both professional and hobbyist uses without limitation.
2. You get free updates, and will never have to pay any money for GIMP. 3. You will never be bothered by license keys that run out, or other software imposed DRM protection that gets in the way of your work. 4. You will be able to work on any Desktop OS you choose, be it Linux, Mac, or Windows, giving you the freedom to choose your working environment and take your tools with you if you decide to switch. 5. You will have a program that you can modify and re-program for your own needs when you become an advanced user. 6. You can teach and learn graphic design, and photo editing without requiring your student(s) or teacher(s) to buy and install locked-down and expensive proprietary software, or buy software subscriptions. 7. You can participate in a friendly and helpful community that spans many FOSS (Free and Open Source Software) application projects. Many of whom will seem like family after a while. :) 8. You will produce graphics in a construction format (.xcf) that can be given to and edited by anyone using GIMP, for free. 9. You can get live help with your problems on irc channels, and mailing lists, and get to speak to the developers and other contributors to the project.

Additionally, there are numerous forums all over the internet full of happy GIMP users, and tons of books, manuals, and videos devoted to doing everything you would like to (both novice and professional) using GIMP.

So, welcome to the community. :) I recommend starting here:

This was very good marketing, in my opinion. You mentioned many advantages of GIMP over Photoshop. Of course, there's still a long way to go.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

Hi Shlomi Fish. Thanks for weighing in on it.

I do not feel the GIMP project is a company in the sense that the quote you've posted suggests.
I feel we are more a community of content contributors, users, and developers.

For example, the GIMP project is not subject to the same market forces as a company, or indeed most proprietary software providers are. It is not kill or be killed for us, and our "product" will exist and be useful long after the "company" has gone (such is the power of Free and Open Source Software), because anyone can pick up the code and continue the work. If Adobe dies, Photoshop dies.

Do we want people to use our software? Of course we do.
Do we offer (for free) a product that can replace Photoshop? Yes, we do that as well.

But we do not need to play the feature-parity competition game with Photoshop, because we are not selling anything.

Directly from the GIMP license:

"GIMP is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY;
without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE."

So to say we offer GIMP to be a replacement for Photoshop is actually not something that we do.

GIMP is an image manipulation program that can replace Photoshop, but "to replace Photoshop" is not its purpose.

Do people use it to replace Photoshop in their work? Definitely. I think there's much more power in that than us telling people to replace Photoshop with GIMP.

We already show what both hobbyists and professionals use GIMP for, and that's good enough.

It's all a bit of a moot point, since the question is from a new user, and not someone switching from Photoshop. So in this case more than any other GIMP is not even being used as a replacement for Photoshop. :)

It will serve them well as a photo/graphics editor, which is what it was designed to be, not merely a replacement for a single (albeit very popular) proprietary software package.

My 2p.

-C

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Hi all,

my email to the list did not arrive, so I'm sending it again while excluding
all hyperlinks.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

Hi C R!

See below for my response:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:26:14 +0100 C R wrote:

To C.R.: I think your proposed change to the download page (adding"93

MB"

just above the download button for GIMP for Windows) is easy, simple,

and

clear. I recommend it highly!

We used to list the file size on the download buttons. Apparently the feature didn't get added to the new web layout (which is much better than our old one in almost every way possible) I'm sure it's just an

oversight.

To Alex: What do I suggest you do about it? I thought that the features

of the latest version of Photoshop could be listed and tried, and any features that anyone likes in any other programs, as well as original ideas, and that GIMP could be presented so that even the relatively inexperienced (like me!) could easily and quickly understand that those useful features are available, what they are, and how to find and conveniently use them.

Where on the Adobe website does it list the features of Photoshop

compared

to GIMP?
GIMP is not made to be competition with Photoshop, and conversely, Photoshop is not made to be in competition with GIMP. They are both

highly

sophisticated image editors, but they are different programs. They are simply built for similar purposes.This is why you will not see a feature-comparison done on either website.

Well, it seems that "Joel on Software" has recommended the opposite approach
(and I tend to agree with him) here:

Quoting from it:

< QUOTE >

When you're trying to get people to switch from a competitor to your product,
you need to understand barriers to entry, and you need to understand them a lot
better than you think, or people won't switch and you'll be waiting tables.

In an earlier letter, I wrote about the difference between two kinds of companies: the Ben and Jerry's kind of company which is trying to take over from established competition, versus the Amazon.com kind of company which is
trying a "land grab" in a new field where there is no established competition.
When I worked on Microsoft Excel in the early 90's, it was a card-carrying member of the Ben and Jerry's camp. Lotus 123, the established competitor, had
an almost complete monopoly in the market for spreadsheets. Sure, there were
new users buying computers who started out with Excel, but for the most part,
if Microsoft wanted to sell spreadsheets, they were going to have to get people
to switch.

The most important thing to do when you're in this position is to admit it. Some companies can't even do this. The management at my last employer, Juno,
was unwilling to admit that AOL had already achieved a dominant position. They
spoke of the "millions of people not yet online." They said that "in every market, there is room for two players: Time and Newsweek, Coke and Pepsi, etc."
The only thing they wouldn't say is "we have to get people to switch away from
AOL." I'm not sure what they were afraid of. Perhaps they thought they were afraid to "wake up the sleeping bear". When one of Juno's star programmers (no,
not me) had the chutzpah, the unmitigated gall to ask a simple question at a
company meeting: "Why aren't we doing more to get AOL users to switch?" they
hauled him off, screamed at him for an hour, and denied him a promotion he had
been promised. (Guess who took his talent elsewhere?)

There's nothing wrong with being in a market that has established competition.
In fact, even if your product is radically new, like eBay, you probably have
competition: garage sales! Don't stress too much. If your product is better in
some way, you actually have a pretty good chance of getting people to switch.
But you have to think strategically about it, and thinking strategically means
thinking one step beyond the obvious.

< END OF QUOTE >

Like it or not - GIMP is an alternative program to (and in much the same niche
as) Adobe Photoshop. We should be aiming to make people use GIMP (or a different
open-source program) instead of or at least in addition to Photoshop. So let's
stop beating around the bush and admit it.

Now, if Photoshop were FOSS and ran fine on
most common open source OSes, then it wouldn't be a major issue. But it's proprietary software, and runs only on Windows and Mac OS X, and costs a lot of money, and has many other issues that you mentioned below, and so the
situation is not ideal.

Since you are new to both programs, I recommend GIMP. The time you would spend learning Photoshop is about the same as the time it takes to learn GIMP.

For your effort, get these advantages: 1. You get a software application that will dutifully serve your photo-editing needs, for free, for both professional and hobbyist uses without limitation.
2. You get free updates, and will never have to pay any money for GIMP. 3. You will never be bothered by license keys that run out, or other software imposed DRM protection that gets in the way of your work. 4. You will be able to work on any Desktop OS you choose, be it Linux,

Mac,

or Windows, giving you the freedom to choose your working environment and take your tools with you if you decide to switch. 5. You will have a program that you can modify and re-program for your

own

needs when you become an advanced user. 6. You can teach and learn graphic design, and photo editing without requiring your student(s) or teacher(s) to buy and install locked-down

and

expensive proprietary software, or buy software subscriptions. 7. You can participate in a friendly and helpful community that spans

many

FOSS (Free and Open Source Software) application projects. Many of whom will seem like family after a while. :) 8. You will produce graphics in a construction format (.xcf) that can be given to and edited by anyone using GIMP, for free. 9. You can get live help with your problems on irc channels, and mailing lists, and get to speak to the developers and other contributors to the project.

Additionally, there are numerous forums all over the internet full of happy GIMP users, and tons of books, manuals, and videos devoted to doing everything you would like to (both novice and professional) using GIMP.

So, welcome to the community. :) I recommend starting here:

This was very good marketing, in my opinion. You mentioned many advantages of
GIMP over Photoshop. Of course, there's still a long way to go.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Like it or not - GIMP is an alternative program to (and in much the same niche as) Adobe Photoshop. We should be aiming to make people use GIMP (or a different open-source program) instead of or at least in addition to Photoshop. So let's stop beating around the bush and admit it.

FAQ specifically covers this. Please read it.

Alex

http://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#are-you-trying-to-develop-a-photoshop-killer-app On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:24 AM Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Like it or not - GIMP is an alternative program to (and in much the same

niche

as) Adobe Photoshop. We should be aiming to make people use GIMP (or a

different

open-source program) instead of or at least in addition to Photoshop. So

let's

stop beating around the bush and admit it.

FAQ specifically covers this. Please read it.

Alex _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

Pat David
https://pixls.us
http://blog.patdavid.net

Small phrase-change recommendation:

I dislike this like in the FAQ: "Why can’t you just copy Adobe Photoshop to make GIMP usable?"

Reason: GIMP is not the least bit unusable, and this question makes it sound like the general consensus is it's garbageware. ;P

Recommended re-phrase: Why can’t you just copy Adobe Photoshop to make GIMP more "user friendly"?

My 2p.

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Pat David wrote:

http://www.gimp.org/docs/userfaq.html#are-you-trying-to-develop-a-photoshop-killer-app On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:24 AM Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Like it or not - GIMP is an alternative program to (and in much the

same

niche

as) Adobe Photoshop. We should be aiming to make people use GIMP (or a

different

open-source program) instead of or at least in addition to Photoshop.

So

let's

stop beating around the bush and admit it.

FAQ specifically covers this. Please read it.

Alex _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
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https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--
Pat David
https://pixls.us
http://blog.patdavid.net
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https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, C R wrote:

Small phrase-change recommendation:

I dislike this like in the FAQ: "Why can’t you just copy Adobe Photoshop to make GIMP usable?"

Reason: GIMP is not the least bit unusable, and this question makes it sound like the general consensus is it's garbageware. ;P

Recommended re-phrase: Why can’t you just copy Adobe Photoshop to make GIMP more "user friendly"?

I decided against sugarcoating for a reason: this is exactly what unhappy users tell us. Verbatim.

Alex

I decided against sugarcoating for a reason: this is exactly what unhappy users tell us. Verbatim.

That seems more like a reason NOT to put it on the site. ;)

-C

;) indeed funny problem ...

I remember the time when Adobe Photoshop was not better than Corel Photopaint and Illustrator was way below Corel Draw (around Corel Suite 6) - then companring the perfect logic (and very flexible) GUI from Corel Suite (not to mention general app. settings full of option versus Photoshop), yes Photoshop and Illustrator looks very user unfriendly in terms of GUI.

About "user friendly" GIMP >> well any software has it's own visual logic. For use a program like GIMP, users will have to adapt or they will leave. Is so simple. The most important thing is the whole set of features. Coming from Photopaint, Draw, Adobe - I've adapted myself to GIMP in 2 or 3 days,I think that "user friendly" is a false problem May be a problem of that user which can't adapt to a GUI with icons for on-screen-tools and a menu with quite clear descriptive names of functions / features.

So where is in fact the "unfriendly user friendly" problem ? ..

btw: garbageware sounds funny too >> in one of my trips in China ,, some friends from a partner company (Shenzhen Lady Commodity) asked me to help them with a poster for a factory ..5.50m / 3.50m. The only computer available was a dual core duo with 4gb or RAM and a video card ATI Radeon HD 5570 with 1GB DDR3 ..believe me or not, Photoshop under Windows crashed constantly yelling about the lack of memory, same for Illustrator. The only solution was to install Ubuntu on a new harddrive and all was done with GIMP ...slowly for each image operation, but at least no crashes - the final file was about 2GB.

Many young padawans will trow words against GIMP until the end of time so we will love to read such amusing discussions for some time from now ..

​​ 2 beers or not to beer ? - this is the real question.

2016-03-30 21:10 GMT+03:00 C R :

I decided against sugarcoating for a reason: this is exactly what unhappy users tell us. Verbatim.

That seems more like a reason NOT to put it on the site. ;)

-C _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
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