We should go for a single-window mode in 2.8

Hi,

We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned
into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to
also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally
planned.

By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating
GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big
changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in
parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good
idea.

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release,
with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were
originally planned for 2.8.

I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI
spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.

/ Martin

> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release
is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8? It's very
hard to work within one window, especially if you're using more than one
monitor (and edit many images)

lg
richy


On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 17:49:22 +0200
Martin Nordholts <enselic@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned
> into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to
> also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally
> planned.
>
> By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating
> GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big
> changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in
> parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good
> idea.
>
> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release,
> with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were
> originally planned for 2.8.
>
> I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI
> spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.
>
> / Martin
>

On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:
>> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release
> is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?

That is not really relevant to this thread.
(But yes of course it will be possible.)

/ Martin

I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this
way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a single
window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..."
Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don´t like to see a
lot of panels flying through my desktop"

Lets give it a try to a single window mode

2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts <enselic@gmail.com>

> On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:
> >> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release
> > is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?
>
> That is not really relevant to this thread.
> (But yes of course it will be possible.)
>
> / Martin
>
> --
>
> My GIMP Blog:
> http://www.chromecode.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>

The single big problem with the MDI was when the toolbox and / or
other boxes remain on top of other opened windows when you minimize
the canvas window. Now with GIMP 2.7 things are changed so MDI will
not be such a problem. But indeed a single window app. was a necessary
step. Will be super OK if we can revert to MDI ( for designers with 2
or 3 monitors will be OK too ). At least users will have choices...


2009/9/6 Ramón Miranda <mirandagraphic@gmail.com>:
> I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this
> way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a single
> window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..."
> Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don´t like to see a
> lot of panels flying through my desktop"
>
> Lets give it a try to a single window mode
>
> 2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts <enselic@gmail.com>
>>
>> On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:
>> >> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release
>> > is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?
>>
>> That is not really relevant to this thread.
>> (But yes of course it will be possible.)
>>
>>  / Martin
>>
>> --
>>
>> My GIMP Blog:
>> http://www.chromecode.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________
> Ramon Miranda
> http://ramonmirandavisualart.blogspot.com
> http://code.google.com/p/gps-gimp-paint-studio/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>
>

>I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this
>way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a
single
>window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..."
>Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to see a
>lot of panels flying through my desktop"
>
>Lets give it a try to a single window mode
>
>2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts <enselic@gmail.com>
>
>> On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:
>> >> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release
>> > is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?
>>
>> That is not really relevant to this thread.
>> (But yes of course it will be possible.)
>>
>> / Martin
>>
>> --
>>
>> My GIMP Blog:
>> http://www.chromecode.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>
>
>

I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single window
Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second monitor
because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single window
program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or at
least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the main
program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted. You coul
also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and Gimp
already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this
perfectly and still was a single window program.

If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a single
windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and the
right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a single
box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the
taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem with
the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that
everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are not
thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is a
powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people seem
to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times have
several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean
several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications
and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and CPU
power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and
switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for professional
artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video
editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs back and
fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that work
just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor
ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of different
programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in the
task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes when I'm
working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry line
and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the task
bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying in that
situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the command
window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then you
get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far better
for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.

Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer the
single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue of
too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users for
long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the very
least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many people
prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first about
being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors
despite the program being single window or single entry program.

I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that the
issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single entry
in the task bar are really two separate things.

I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always shows
as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just
easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications workflow.

David G said
>always opened like this and Gimp already has the ability to save it's
layout too. Photoshop allowed this
>perfectly and still was a single window program.

i would like to have also the ability so save my workspace and change
"inside" the gimp from. for example. paint workspace to a "photoretouch"
space . instead having different sessionrc and quiting gimp to change the
workspace. i hope you will understand me.

2009/9/6 David G. <forums@gimpusers.com>

> >I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this
> >way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a
> single
> >window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..."
> >Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to see a
> >lot of panels flying through my desktop"
> >
> >Lets give it a try to a single window mode
> >
> >2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts <enselic@gmail.com>
> >
> >> On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:
> >> >> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release
> >> > is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?
> >>
> >> That is not really relevant to this thread.
> >> (But yes of course it will be possible.)
> >>
> >> / Martin
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> My GIMP Blog:
> >> http://www.chromecode.com/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Gimp-developer mailing list
> >> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
> >> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
> >>
> >
> >
>
> I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single
> window
> Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second monitor
> because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single
> window
> program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or at
> least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the
> main
> program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted. You
> coul
> also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and
> Gimp
> already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this
> perfectly and still was a single window program.
>
> If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a single
> windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and
> the
> right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a
> single
> box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the
> taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem
> with
> the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that
> everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are not
> thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is a
> powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people
> seem
> to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times have
> several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean
> several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications
> and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and CPU
> power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and
> switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for professional
> artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video
> editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs back
> and
> fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that work
> just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor
> ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of
> different
> programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in the
> task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes when
> I'm
> working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry
> line
> and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the
> task
> bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying in
> that
> situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the
> command
> window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then you
> get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far
> better
> for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.
>
> Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer the
> single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue of
> too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users
> for
> long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the very
> least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many people
> prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first
> about
> being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors
> despite the program being single window or single entry program.
>
> I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that the
> issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single
> entry
> in the task bar are really two separate things.
>
> I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always shows
> as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just
> easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications
> workflow.
>
> --
> David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>

"I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always shows
as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just
easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications workflow."


But GIMP 2.7 solve that. Maybe you don't use 2.7. A single entry in
taskbar and when the canvas window is minimized all other utility
windows are minimized too.


2009/9/6 Ramón Miranda <mirandagraphic@gmail.com>:
> David G said
>>always opened like this and Gimp already has the ability to save it's
>> layout too. Photoshop allowed this
>>perfectly and still was a single window program.
>
> i would like to have also the ability so save my workspace and change
> "inside" the gimp from. for example. paint workspace to a "photoretouch"
> space . instead having different sessionrc and quiting gimp to change the
> workspace. i hope you will understand me.
>
> 2009/9/6 David G. <forums@gimpusers.com>
>>
>> >I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So
>> > this
>> >way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a
>> single
>> >window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..."
>> >Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to see
>> > a
>> >lot of panels flying through my desktop"
>> >
>> >Lets give it a try to a single window mode
>> >
>> >2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts <enselic@gmail.com>
>> >
>> >> On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:
>> >> >> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release
>> >> > is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?
>> >>
>> >> That is not really relevant to this thread.
>> >> (But yes of course it will be possible.)
>> >>
>> >>  / Martin
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> My GIMP Blog:
>> >> http://www.chromecode.com/
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Gimp-developer mailing list
>> >> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>> >> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>   I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single
>> window
>> Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second monitor
>> because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single
>> window
>> program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or at
>> least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the
>> main
>> program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted. You
>> coul
>> also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and
>> Gimp
>> already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this
>> perfectly and still was a single window program.
>>
>>   If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a single
>> windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and
>> the
>> right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a
>> single
>> box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the
>> taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem
>> with
>> the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that
>> everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are not
>> thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is a
>> powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people
>> seem
>> to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times
>> have
>> several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean
>> several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications
>> and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and
>> CPU
>> power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and
>> switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for professional
>> artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video
>> editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs back
>> and
>> fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that
>> work
>> just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor
>> ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of
>> different
>> programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in
>> the
>> task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes when
>> I'm
>> working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry
>> line
>> and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the
>> task
>> bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying in
>> that
>> situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the
>> command
>> window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then
>> you
>> get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far
>> better
>> for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.
>>
>> Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer the
>> single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue
>> of
>> too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users
>> for
>> long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the
>> very
>> least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many people
>> prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first
>> about
>> being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors
>> despite the program being  single window or single entry program.
>>
>> I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that the
>> issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single
>> entry
>> in the task bar are really two separate things.
>>
>> I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always
>> shows
>> as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just
>> easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications
>> workflow.
>>
>> --
>> David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________
> Ramon Miranda
> http://ramonmirandavisualart.blogspot.com
> http://code.google.com/p/gps-gimp-paint-studio/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>
>

To SorinN: I use Windows (Vista 64 bit and XP) and I only have Gimp 2.6.7 so
far which is the one that is available for Windows now, if Gimp 2.7 creates a
single entry in the taskbar and all the Windows minimize when you minimize one
that's great for me, the multiple windows thing and being able to put them
anywhere you want doesn't bother me, like I said it's just that I think that a
single entry in the task bar becomes much easier to manage in a multi
application workflow. Again if Gimp 2.7 fixes this that will be great.

In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7
crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee. When
I activate a selection markee the graphics driver starts to have problems and
starts to flicker and shortly after that the Nvidia cards reports to me that
the graphics system has crashed and that it has been recovered. Luckily this
recovery system seems to be pretty solid in my graphics card system otherwise
I would have a lot of Vista crashes because of this. I Have Windows Vista
Ultimate 64 Bit running in a Intel core i7 CPU and two Evga 260 GTX graphic
cards running in SLI mode with 12 gigas of DDR3 memory, when I first installed
Gimp in this machine it crashed a lot when I tried to use color correction
tools like Brighness and Contrast adjustments, as soon as I tried to use one
of those Gimp crashed but when it was updated to version 2.6.7 that was
totally fixed (that bug was giving a lot of people problems cause I found out
online) but I still have the selection markee issue that makes the graphic
system unstable quickly, any ideas about what could be causing this? In my XP
machines it works just fine.

>"I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always
shows
>as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just
>easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications
workflow."
>
>
>But GIMP 2.7 solve that. Maybe you don't use 2.7. A single entry in
>taskbar and when the canvas window is minimized all other utility
>windows are minimized too.
>
>
>2009/9/6 Ramon Miranda <mirandagraphic@gmail.com>:
>> David G said
>>>always opened like this and Gimp already has the ability to save it's
>>> layout too. Photoshop allowed this
>>>perfectly and still was a single window program.
>>
>> i would like to have also the ability so save my workspace and change
>> "inside" the gimp from. for example. paint workspace to a "photoretouch"
>> space . instead having different sessionrc and quiting gimp to change the
>> workspace. i hope you will understand me.
>>
>> 2009/9/6 David G. <forums@gimpusers.com>
>>>
>>> >I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So
>>> > this
>>> >way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a
>>> single
>>> >window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a
lot..."
>>> >Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to
see
>>> > a
>>> >lot of panels flying through my desktop"
>>> >
>>> >Lets give it a try to a single window mode
>>> >
>>> >2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts <enselic@gmail.com>
>>> >
>>> >> On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:
>>> >> >> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release
>>> >> > is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?
>>> >>
>>> >> That is not really relevant to this thread.
>>> >> (But yes of course it will be possible.)
>>> >>
>>> >> / Martin
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >>
>>> >> My GIMP Blog:
>>> >> http://www.chromecode.com/
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Gimp-developer mailing list
>>> >> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>>> >> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single
>>> window
>>> Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second
monitor
>>> because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single
>>> window
>>> program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or
at
>>> least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the
>>> main
>>> program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted.
You
>>> coul
>>> also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and
>>> Gimp
>>> already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this
>>> perfectly and still was a single window program.
>>>
>>> If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a
single
>>> windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and
>>> the
>>> right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a
>>> single
>>> box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the
>>> taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem
>>> with
>>> the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that
>>> everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are
not
>>> thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is
a
>>> powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people
>>> seem
>>> to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times
>>> have
>>> several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean
>>> several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications
>>> and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and
>>> CPU
>>> power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and
>>> switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for
professional
>>> artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video
>>> editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs
back
>>> and
>>> fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that
>>> work
>>> just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor
>>> ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of
>>> different
>>> programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in
>>> the
>>> task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes
when
>>> I'm
>>> working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry
>>> line
>>> and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the
>>> task
>>> bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying
in
>>> that
>>> situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the
>>> command
>>> window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then
>>> you
>>> get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far
>>> better
>>> for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.
>>>
>>> Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer
the
>>> single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue
>>> of
>>> too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users
>>> for
>>> long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the
>>> very
>>> least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many
people
>>> prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first
>>> about
>>> being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors
>>> despite the program being single window or single entry program.
>>>
>>> I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that
the
>>> issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single
>>> entry
>>> in the task bar are really two separate things.
>>>
>>> I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always
>>> shows
>>> as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's
just
>>> easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications
>>> workflow.
>>>
>>> --
>>> David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>>> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _______________________________________
>> Ramon Miranda
>> http://ramonmirandavisualart.blogspot.com
>> http://code.google.com/p/gps-gimp-paint-studio/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:26 AM, David G.<forums@gimpusers.com> wrote:
> To SorinN: I use Windows (Vista 64 bit and XP) and I only have Gimp 2.6.7 so
> far which is the one that is available for Windows now, if Gimp 2.7 creates a

Behold:

http://www.gimptalk.com/forum/gimp-2-7-beta,-last-stable-is-2-6-7-also-for-windows-t37771.html

Yea, verily.

David

Yes I know, but those are beta releases and many people say that using the
text tool crashes their Gimp 2.7 a lot. As a general rule I avoid beta
software, not always but most of the time because I usually rather wait for
the stable release. I don't mind waiting a bit longer for the new single entry
in the task bar feature, right now I'm more concern with the graphic card
issue with the selection markee, I will report that to Nvidia just in case. If
it turns out to be a bug with the graphic driver instead of Gimp the more
users with this problem that report it to Nvidia the merrier.

>On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:26 AM, David G.<forums@gimpusers.com> wrote:
>> To SorinN: I use Windows (Vista 64 bit and XP) and I only have Gimp 2.6.7
so
>> far which is the one that is available for Windows now, if Gimp 2.7
creates a
>
>Behold:
>
>http://www.gimptalk.com/forum/gimp-2-7-beta,-last-stable-is-2-6-7-also-for-windows-t37771.html
>
>Yea, verily.
>
>David
>

yep - we have here 2 separated points
Vista
GIMP

Vista - it's a problem for Microsoft too not only for users - maybe
for a simple user (mails, internet, office programs) Vista is just
perfect, but when you have to use Vista for more serious tasks, many
peoples feels like you -> Vista = problems where XP was OK. Especially
with graphic drivers Vista count a lot of holes - ask gamers...

So is not a GIMP problem. GIMP use GTK (for windows) which should work
OK with Vista. Anyway this is not a GIMP problem. I revert my second
OS back to XP too (first is Ubuntu).

About GIMP 2.7 - I put GIMP 2.7 for windows on a web space - you can
download and try it from here :
http://www.lady-anion.com/gimp-2.7.0-i686-setup.exe

Because is a development release - in Windows, the text tool (yep
there are a direct text tool as in Photoshop) can crash your GIMP so
be aware.

2009/9/7 David G. <forums@gimpusers.com>:
> To SorinN: I use Windows (Vista 64 bit and XP) and I only have Gimp 2.6.7 so
> far which is the one that is available for Windows now, if Gimp 2.7 creates a
> single entry in the taskbar and all the Windows minimize when you minimize one
> that's great for me, the multiple windows thing and being able to put them
> anywhere you want doesn't bother me, like I said it's just that I think that a
> single entry in the task bar becomes much easier to manage in a multi
> application workflow. Again if Gimp 2.7 fixes this that will be great.
>
> In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7
> crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee. When
> I activate a selection markee the graphics driver starts to have problems and
> starts to flicker and shortly after that the Nvidia cards reports to me that
> the graphics system has crashed and that it has been recovered. Luckily this
> recovery system seems to be pretty solid in my graphics card system otherwise
> I would have a lot of Vista crashes because of this. I Have Windows Vista
> Ultimate 64 Bit running in a Intel core i7 CPU and two Evga 260 GTX graphic
> cards running in SLI mode with 12 gigas of DDR3 memory, when I first installed
> Gimp in this machine it crashed a lot when I tried to use color correction
> tools like Brighness and Contrast adjustments, as soon as I tried to use one
> of those Gimp crashed but when it was updated to version 2.6.7 that was
> totally fixed (that bug was giving a lot of people problems cause I found out
> online) but I still have the selection markee issue that makes the graphic
> system unstable quickly, any ideas about what could be causing this? In my XP
> machines it works just fine.
>
>>"I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always
> shows
>>as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just
>>easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications
> workflow."
>>
>>
>>But GIMP 2.7 solve that. Maybe you don't use 2.7. A single entry in
>>taskbar and when the canvas window is minimized all other utility
>>windows are minimized too.
>>
>>
>>2009/9/6 Ramon Miranda <mirandagraphic@gmail.com>:
>>> David G said
>>>>always opened like this and Gimp already has the ability to save it's
>>>> layout too. Photoshop allowed this
>>>>perfectly and still was a single window program.
>>>
>>> i would like to have also the ability so save my workspace and change
>>> "inside" the gimp from. for example. paint workspace to a "photoretouch"
>>> space . instead having different sessionrc and quiting gimp to change the
>>> workspace. i hope you will understand me.
>>>
>>> 2009/9/6 David G. <forums@gimpusers.com>
>>>>
>>>> >I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So
>>>> > this
>>>> >way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a
>>>> single
>>>> >window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a
> lot..."
>>>> >Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to
> see
>>>> > a
>>>> >lot of panels flying through my desktop"
>>>> >
>>>> >Lets give it a try to a single window mode
>>>> >
>>>> >2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts <enselic@gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:
>>>> >> >> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release
>>>> >> > is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> That is not really relevant to this thread.
>>>> >> (But yes of course it will be possible.)
>>>> >>
>>>> >>  / Martin
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >>
>>>> >> My GIMP Blog:
>>>> >> http://www.chromecode.com/
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Gimp-developer mailing list
>>>> >> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>>>> >> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>   I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single
>>>> window
>>>> Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second
> monitor
>>>> because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single
>>>> window
>>>> program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or
> at
>>>> least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the
>>>> main
>>>> program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted.
> You
>>>> coul
>>>> also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and
>>>> Gimp
>>>> already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this
>>>> perfectly and still was a single window program.
>>>>
>>>>   If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a
> single
>>>> windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and
>>>> the
>>>> right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a
>>>> single
>>>> box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the
>>>> taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem
>>>> with
>>>> the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that
>>>> everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are
> not
>>>> thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is
> a
>>>> powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people
>>>> seem
>>>> to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times
>>>> have
>>>> several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean
>>>> several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications
>>>> and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and
>>>> CPU
>>>> power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and
>>>> switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for
> professional
>>>> artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video
>>>> editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs
> back
>>>> and
>>>> fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that
>>>> work
>>>> just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor
>>>> ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of
>>>> different
>>>> programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in
>>>> the
>>>> task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes
> when
>>>> I'm
>>>> working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry
>>>> line
>>>> and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the
>>>> task
>>>> bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying
> in
>>>> that
>>>> situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the
>>>> command
>>>> window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then
>>>> you
>>>> get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far
>>>> better
>>>> for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer
> the
>>>> single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue
>>>> of
>>>> too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users
>>>> for
>>>> long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the
>>>> very
>>>> least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many
> people
>>>> prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first
>>>> about
>>>> being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors
>>>> despite the program being  single window or single entry program.
>>>>
>>>> I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that
> the
>>>> issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single
>>>> entry
>>>> in the task bar are really two separate things.
>>>>
>>>> I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always
>>>> shows
>>>> as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's
> just
>>>> easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications
>>>> workflow.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>>>> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>>>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> _______________________________________
>>> Ramon Miranda
>>> http://ramonmirandavisualart.blogspot.com
>>> http://code.google.com/p/gps-gimp-paint-studio/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>>> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
>>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>

On Monday, September 7, 2009, 2:56:40, David G. wrote:

> In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7
> crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee. When
> I activate a selection markee the graphics driver starts to have problems and
> starts to flicker and shortly after that the Nvidia cards reports to me that
> the graphics system has crashed and that it has been recovered.

Are you using the latest drivers from www.nvidia.com? Anyway, even if
you are, this is not GIMP's fault, but a problem in the driver itself.

BTW, there is a GIMP 2.7.0 installer for Windows on SourceForge.

> Von: "David G." <forums@gimpusers.com>

> In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7
> crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee.

Nvidia has corrected the bug in at least some of their drivers, you might want to check for updates. I think that it had been XP in the cases I've read about, though.

On a side note, I had a very hard time convincing users that this kind of problem (display flickers when using a selection in GIMP with a very specific Nvidia card, and others don't have the same problem) is something that should be reported to Nvidia. They insisted that the problem has to be in GIMP...

Don't be afraid to send reports about bug you've encountered to any company, insitution, service, ... . If they never hear about it, they can't fix it.


HTH,
Michael

Well the last drivers I downloaded was about three weeks ago so I think that
it may be too early too check, perhaps in a month or two and yes I did think
too that it could be an Nvidia driver problem and if a lot of users using
other graphic cards are not having the same problem that's more reason to
suspect.




>> Von: "David G." <forums@gimpusers.com>
>
>> In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7
>> crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee.
>
>Nvidia has corrected the bug in at least some of their drivers, you might
want to check for updates. I think that it had been XP in the cases I've read
about, though.
>
>On a side note, I had a very hard time convincing users that this kind of
problem (display flickers when using a selection in GIMP with a very specific
Nvidia card, and others don't have the same problem) is something that should
be reported to Nvidia. They insisted that the problem has to be in GIMP...
>
>Don't be afraid to send reports about bug you've encountered to any company,
insitution, service, ... . If they never hear about it, they can't fix it.
>
>
>HTH,
>Michael
>

>> Von: "David G." <forums@gimpusers.com>
>
>> In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7
>> crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee.
>
>Nvidia has corrected the bug in at least some of their drivers, you might
want to check for updates. I think that it had been XP in the cases I've read
about, though.
>
>On a side note, I had a very hard time convincing users that this kind of
problem (display flickers when using a selection in GIMP with a very specific
Nvidia card, and others don't have the same problem) is something that should
be reported to Nvidia. They insisted that the problem has to be in GIMP...
>
>Don't be afraid to send reports about bug you've encountered to any company,
insitution, service, ... . If they never hear about it, they can't fix it.
>
>
>HTH,
>Michael
>

Update: I checked again in the Nvidia site and there was a driver update
shortly after I installed the most recent I could find there meaning that I
downloaded the newest drivers at about the first week of August and when I
checked after this last post I saw that Nvidia had posted new drivers on the
20th of August so I downloaded and installed those and the bug seems to be
gone, I have not noticed the screen flashing anymore when I activate the
selection markee and the problem happened happened fairly quickly after doing
that and the GPU has not reported that it has crashed and recovered again so I
think that it was definitely a driver problem, great! I can use my Gimp
again!!

On Sun, 2009-09-06 at 06:37 +0200, David G. wrote:

> I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single window
> Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second monitor
> because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single window
> program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or at
> least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the main
> program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted.

PhotoShop (e.g. CS2) is not MDI -- you can drag images out of the
"desktop" window too. And it's not single-window either. Instead,
there's a "desktop" window, but that's really there (I think) just
to make sure other program windows don't interfere visually, and
to make people think it's still an MDI program. Of course, it also
minimises completely, unlike gimp where I can have two images
minimised and one open (which is good) and then if I close the
image that's open (not minimized i mean), I am left with a toolbox
and no images, so I no longer have access to any menus.

GIMP already shows as a single entry in the gnome taskbar, here
at least, so there's "minimise all" available now.

At any rate, Martin, I'm sure you already know people use "MDI"
loosely to mean "behaviour I'd like to see, involving my
perception of fewer windows" and "single window" to mean
"multiple windows that minimise together" or "program that
can't really be used to work on multiple projects at the
same time and hence is less confusing for me" :-)

Right now gimp is broken for working on multiple projects (the
file/save changes have rendered it too hard to keep track of
where images are being "exported") but the use case is central
(I think) to how "single window" needs to work.

Liam

Liam wrote:

> Right now gimp is broken for working on multiple projects (the
> file/save changes have rendered it too hard to keep track of
> where images are being "exported") but the use case is central
> (I think) to how "single window" needs to work.


OK, I am listening.

can you explain to me how this worked better in 2.6?

thanks,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect
man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

On Mon, 2009-09-07 at 09:50 +0200, peter sikking wrote:
> Liam wrote:
>
> > Right now gimp is broken for working on multiple projects (the
> > file/save changes have rendered it too hard to keep track of
> > where images are being "exported") but the use case is central
> > (I think) to how "single window" needs to work.
>
>
> OK, I am listening.
>
> can you explain to me how this worked better in 2.6?

First, note that I said "right now" -- although strictly speaking
I should have said a month ago, I need to update.

So there are some unfinished details, and some of these don't
matter too much individually but add up, rather like the
chairs at MacDonalds, designed to be comfortable only for
twenty minutes...

The biggest problems I have right now -- and I know ways to
address the biggest have been discussed -- are

(1) "file->export as" (regardless of what it's called) goes
to the wrong directory: it needs default to the same
directory as "save as", that is, the directory with
the original-precious-image. I could happily live with
a preference for default export directory, but "My Documents"
really, really doesn't cut it outside of a family's
computer for saving snapshots... (Desktop would be as bad)

(2) there's no menu in the toolbox, and if you have the toolbox
and no image window, you have to open a minimsed image
window just to get to file->new

Use case:
. scan an image. Maybe export it to
scannd-images/Vesalius/raw-pages/folio309.png
for archiving.

Work on it, off and on, during the course of the day.

Save it to
scanned-images/Vesalius/cleaned/folio309.png
for archiving when done, and then (maybe an
hour or two later) make 5 jpeg images at
different sizes, all to be exported to
scanned-images/Vesalius/jpeg/

. Meanwhile, use "open image in gimp" on an
interesting photo of a rock that someone pasted
into IRC. Hmm, let's try levels->auto on that
and export to /tmp (or Desktop, don't care)
to send back for a discussion about the
algorithm

. at the same time I'm editing a photo I took for
work, but that's on hold for an hour waiting
someone to get back from lunch

. I work on the photo for a bit. Then I minimise
it so I have the scan and the work photo minimised in
the task bar, and the rock photo open. I edited it,
export it (where?) and close it.

. Now I just have the GIMP toolbox visible, and no
image windows.

. The person at work is back but wants me to try something
new, so I have to make a new image. Hmm, I have a gimp
toolbox but no File menu, that's fucked. Let's have at
least a right-click menu on the toolbox drop area please,
with File and Window.

. Now I go to save (or export) that Vesalius scan. Is it
the first time I've exported? can't tell. Where does
it want to put the image? My Bloody Documents. So now
I find a terminal window, navigate to th directory with
the Vesalius images, do "pwd", copy the result, and paste
it into the file chooser and hit enter. Oops, overwrote
the filename, hit cancel and start again. It's fun, this.

. OK, back to the work photo, time to do file->export.
Where will it go? Where was I when I was working on it?



So I'm working in parallel on several different projects, each with
their own folders, and I'd actually be just as happy in many ways with
three entirely separate gimp instances... and starting an entirely new
gimp for a new image so I'd get the menus.

Sorry for a long posting, I hope it's a bit clearer. There are some
other details like the export dialogues having 'save" instead of
"overwrite" or "export" on them that might already have been fixed.

A pull-down of active and recent directories on the file choosers
would help, but not as much as having bookmarks + the current
image's export directory starting off the same as the import or
save directory.

A final note -- I scale the image, export as jpeg, sharpen,
scale again, sharpen come back half an hour later and want to know
at which points I exported as jpeg; with 2.4, I could undo repeatedly
until the * in the image window went away, and that was when I'd saved
as png. An icon in the undo history would help a lot here.


Hope this helps!

Liam

Liam R E Quin wrote:

>> OK, I am listening.
>>
>> can you explain to me how this worked better in 2.6?
>
> First, note that I said "right now" -- although strictly speaking
> I should have said a month ago, I need to update.


Sorry that I did not follow up on this sooner, but it may have
been a good thing. now that you have updated your build, can
you please state how much of the grievances are left?

I suspect most of them are gone, when things are implemented to spec.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect
man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:22 PM, peter sikking wrote:

> I suspect most of them are gone, when things are implemented to spec.

BTW, I'm really curious what you will decide to do with the currently
existing Image Chooser combobox for SDI mode :)

Alexandre

Martin Nordholts wrote:

> I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI
> spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.

I personally don't have any objection.

The current multi-window interface is not bad (it's actually quite
useful in a multi-monitor environment) but it's so radically different
from that of most other raster image editors than many people quickly
deem it as unintuitive, too hard to use and because of it don't take the
program seriously as a *powerful* open-source alternative to similar
commercial programs.

An official single windowed GIMP would draw much attention from both end
users and potentially contributing developers and would definitely be
beneficial to the whole project in the medium to long run.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Martin Nordholts wrote:

> We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned
> into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to
> also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally
> planned.
>
> By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating
> GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big
> changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in
> parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good
> idea.
>
> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release,
> with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were
> originally planned for 2.8.
>
> I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI
> spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.

Martin, there always will be different opinions on the matter. The
best you can do it write such a great patch that rejecting will be as
wrong as genocide :)

Alexandre

Whatever you guys do. Please make it work with KDE kwin windows manager. The
current UI doesn't work with Kwin or Compiz.

The windows (toolbox and layerbox) won't stay on top if the behavior set to
utility window.

So hoping for overall better interface :)

Best of luck.

Regards

On 09/07/2009 07:07 PM, Shashwat wrote:
> Whatever you guys do. Please make it work with KDE kwin windows manager. The
> current UI doesn't work with Kwin or Compiz.

You'll have to file a bug report with those window managers, there's nothing
GIMP can sensibly do about them not supporting the utility window hint in a
sane way

BR,
Martin

No objections--- mostly I would urge developers to plan what they're
going to do, make the changes, and stick to it. I know that's always
been the plan but it doesn't feel like it when you're using the
different versions. The random UI changes that appear in each release
throw off folks who use the Gimp day to day and have to keep
relearning behaviors that they are comfortable with or have become
muscle memory over years. It would be like ^x being remapped in every
release of emacs. Sure the original isn't intuitive but it's far more
important to JUST STOP CHANGING IT. :-)

All the window wanking with different UI/WM behavior in every version
is just starting to feel like destructive churn :-( I know there are
reasons, I'm just saying keep it in mind as one more competetive
pressure.

Monty

On Monday 07 September 2009 20:13:23 Martin Nordholts wrote:
> On 09/07/2009 07:07 PM, Shashwat wrote:
> > Whatever you guys do. Please make it work with KDE kwin windows manager.
> > The current UI doesn't work with Kwin or Compiz.
>
> You'll have to file a bug report with those window managers, there's
> nothing GIMP can sensibly do about them not supporting the utility window
> hint in a sane way
There actually is a bug report about it against kwin. However kwin/KDE
developers do not consider it a bug, but more like a wish list item and cant
be bothered about implementing it. Another complaining voice might perhaps get
someone interested.

--Alexia

On Monday 07 September 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote:
> On 09/07/2009 07:07 PM, Shashwat wrote:
> > Whatever you guys do. Please make it work with KDE kwin windows manager.
The
> > current UI doesn't work with Kwin or Compiz.
>
> You'll have to file a bug report with those window managers, there's nothing
> GIMP can sensibly do about them not supporting the utility window hint in a
> sane way
You mean something like:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=177025
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178074

If you know of other people complaining, maybe we may sway the developers of
KDE to do something about it by combining the reports. I have little hope
though...
regards
Karl Günter

Not that one.. I am talking about this
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172615

There are lots of people and duplicate bug report for the same but never
fixed :(

>On Monday 07 September 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote:
>> On 09/07/2009 07:07 PM, Shashwat wrote:
>> > Whatever you guys do. Please make it work with KDE kwin windows manager.

>The
>> > current UI doesn't work with Kwin or Compiz.
>>
>> You'll have to file a bug report with those window managers, there's
nothing
>> GIMP can sensibly do about them not supporting the utility window hint in
a
>> sane way
>You mean something like:
>http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=177025
>http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178074
>
>If you know of other people complaining, maybe we may sway the developers of

>KDE to do something about it by combining the reports. I have little hope
>though...
>regards
>Karl Gunter
>

Martin Nordholts wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned
> into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to
> also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally
> planned.
::snip? SNIP!::

Hi, all.

I might be daft, but what exactly _is_ a single-window mode. It feels like I'm
the odd one out, here, and that everyone else knows what's going on, but I can't
really imagine that's the case. What window are we talking about?

The phrase "single-window mode" really means absolutely nothing to me. Can
someone draw a simple mock-up to make it clear?

--xsdg

Omari Stephens wrote:

> The phrase "single-window mode" really means absolutely nothing to
> me. Can
> someone draw a simple mock-up to make it clear?


I will blog about it soon, so you know what I am up to.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect
man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

On Saturday 05 September 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote:
> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release,
> with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were
> originally planned for 2.8.
Why not have it both ways - by simply making the toolboxes dockable...
That's the way many programs handle things like that and it's working like a
charm. IMHO this would sort out any complaints about a change in usability as
the undocked toolboxes could behave as they would currently...
regards
Karl Günter

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 17:49, Martin Nordholts<enselic@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned
> into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to
> also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally
> planned.

Please come back on topic. The question was not if or how. The if is
answered by Martin with a yes and the how will be written down by
Peter. The question was if in 2.8 or in 2.10?

I think this can't be answered before we see what Peter has designed.
So this complete discussion is pointless.

Regards,
Tobias

>Hi,
>
>We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned
>into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to
>also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally
>planned.
>
>By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating
>GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big
>changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in
>parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good
>idea.
>
>A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release,
>with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were
>originally planned for 2.8.
>
>I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI
>spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.
>
> / Martin
>
>

particularly'm used to working with multiwindowing not that bother me too
much work a single window, but is more customizable necessary checks to see
which work and part with to see your desktop while you do this is something
I've always liked to of gimp, which could see other screens in the background
while working in gimp ..

Thanks ..
Happy-Word.

On 09/11/09 12:46, harold wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned
>> into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to
>> also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally
>> planned.
>>
>> By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating
>> GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big
>> changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in
>> parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good
>> idea.
>>
>> A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release,
>> with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were
>> originally planned for 2.8.
>>
>> I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI
>> spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.
>>
>> / Martin
>>
>>
>>


FWIW, a -1 from me on single window and a +1 on the existing
multi-window. Single windows are generally too cluttered up with stuff
you don't need at the moment and use screen space inefficiently.

>
> particularly'm used to working with multiwindowing not that bother me too
> much work a single window, but is more customizable necessary checks to see
> which work and part with to see your desktop while you do this is something
> I've always liked to of gimp, which could see other screens in the background
> while working in gimp ..
>
> Thanks ..
> Happy-Word.
>
>
>
>

On 09/13/2009 12:41 AM, Chris Moller wrote:
> FWIW, a -1 from me on single window and a +1 on the existing
> multi-window. Single windows are generally too cluttered up with stuff
> you don't need at the moment and use screen space inefficiently.

Let's clear this up once and for all: The single-window mode is just a
mode, multi-window will still be possible. GIMP 2.8 will support both a
single-window interface and a multi-window interface.

/ Martin

>On 09/13/2009 12:41 AM, Chris Moller wrote:
>> FWIW, a -1 from me on single window and a +1 on the existing
>> multi-window. Single windows are generally too cluttered up with stuff
>> you don't need at the moment and use screen space inefficiently.
>
>Let's clear this up once and for all: The single-window mode is just a
>mode, multi-window will still be possible. GIMP 2.8 will support both a
>single-window interface and a multi-window interface.
>
> / Martin
>
>
I would be in favor of an optional single-window mode. On my laptop it would work well. On my desktop, I have dual monitors, so it makes sense to split the windows up.

So yeah, +1 vote for single-window mode.

One thing I'd like is to have multiple columns of dockable dialogs per window, instead of limiting to just one column. Also, I'd find it useful to dock some dockable dialogs into the image window but not all of them. Just putting that out there.

Yep single window mode will take away all the clutter that has right now for
newbie :)

Duh.. I reviewed Gimp 2.6 for Indian Linux magz, and now running a beginner
tutus for the same. Now i have to revamp the tutorials again :P

http://www.linuxforu.com/

>Hi,
>
>We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned
>into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to
>also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally
>planned.
>
>By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating
>GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big
>changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in
>parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good
>idea.
>
>A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release,
>with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were
>originally planned for 2.8.
>
>I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI
>spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.
>
> / Martin
>
>
Greeeeeeat a will waiting for. My users are needing this way.

hey guys,

I have now blogged about the single-window mode:

<http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2009/09/gimp-single-mode.html>

enjoy,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect
man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

>hey guys,
>
>I have now blogged about the single-window mode:
>
><http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2009/09/gimp-single-mode.html>
>
>enjoy,
>
> --ps
>
> founder + principal interaction architect
> man + machine interface works
>
> http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture
>


Read your blog twice and think all the ideas are great.

Commented there too but that was before I read it for the second time.

An idea occurred to me. When you tear of the tabs, or thumbnail I guess, you
get a polaroid. Really nice idea. But wouldn't it be great if you could
rightclick on a thumbnail and chose between polaroid and float image. To make
it so that the image you're working on has maximum flexibility too, just as
much as the polaroids?

jolie wrote:

>> <http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2009/09/gimp-single-mode.html
>> >
>
> Read your blog twice and think all the ideas are great.

ah, thanks.

> Commented there too but that was before I read it for the second time.
>
> An idea occurred to me. When you tear of the tabs, or thumbnail I
> guess, you
> get a polaroid. Really nice idea. But wouldn't it be great if you
> could
> rightclick on a thumbnail and chose between polaroid and float
> image. To make
> it so that the image you're working on has maximum flexibility too,
> just as
> much as the polaroids?


I have really to ask what you expect from that float image, and how
different
that would be from multi-widow mode.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect
man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

>jolie wrote:
>
>>> <http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2009/09/gimp-single-mode.html
>>> >
>>
>> Read your blog twice and think all the ideas are great.
>
>ah, thanks.
>
>> Commented there too but that was before I read it for the second time.
>>
>> An idea occurred to me. When you tear of the tabs, or thumbnail I
>> guess, you
>> get a polaroid. Really nice idea. But wouldn't it be great if you
>> could
>> rightclick on a thumbnail and chose between polaroid and float
>> image. To make
>> it so that the image you're working on has maximum flexibility too,
>> just as
>> much as the polaroids?
>
>
>I have really to ask what you expect from that float image, and how
>different
>that would be from multi-widow mode.
>
> --ps
>
> founder + principal interaction architect
> man + machine interface works
>
> http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture
>
For me the big difference is usability.
When I work in GIMP what happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next
to a window of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown
on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had visibly open
below the GIMP windows.
To get GIMP back you have to click on all your GIMP windows in the taskbar.


In a single window interface the background IS gimp. Click next to an image
by accident and nothing will happen, you'll still be in GIMP.

This is the main reason for me why I am looking forward to a single window
mode.

Also I've slept on it and given it some more thought and I'd like to ask
again if you would please give having multiple images open at the same time
some more thought.
IMO being able to work on more images at the same time is VITAL for a
professional image editing program. (just think of cloning to name 1 example)
Please give your users the options to do so in both modes, single and multiple
windows.

Thank you,
Jolie

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 8:30 PM, jolie S <forums@gimpusers.com> wrote:
> Also I've slept on it and given it some more thought and I'd like to ask
> again if you would please give having multiple images open at the same time
> some more thought.
> IMO being able to work on more images at the same time is VITAL for a
> professional image editing program. (just think of cloning to name 1 example)
> Please give your users the options to do so in both modes, single and multiple
> windows.

Peter's specification does give the option to have multiple images open at once.
Perhaps you mean having multiple images both visible and workable-upon
at once. That's certainly important for things like cloning, as you
said.

Perhaps a split-panel option for single window mode would resolve
this. (I believe we could still only reasonably show a maximum of 2
images at once; this is simply a limitation of the single-window
format AFAICS.)

On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 20:51 +0930, David Gowers wrote:

> Perhaps a split-panel option for single window mode would resolve
> this. (I believe we could still only reasonably show a maximum of 2
> images at once; this is simply a limitation of the single-window
> format AFAICS.)

Do you mean that the windows would be too small, e.g. on a 30"
"cimena" display or with 5 LCD monitors :), or do you mean
that the toolkit only supports two panes??

For cloning you only need a tiny part of the source visible...

Liam

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 8:57 PM, Liam R E Quin <liam@holoweb.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 20:51 +0930, David Gowers wrote:
>
>> Perhaps a split-panel option for single window mode would resolve
>> this. (I believe we could still only reasonably show a maximum of 2
>> images at once; this is simply a limitation of the single-window
>> format AFAICS.)
>
> Do you mean that the windows would be too small, e.g. on a 30"
> "cimena" display or with 5 LCD monitors :), or do you mean
> that the toolkit only supports two panes??
Too small (except on a 30" single display. 5 LCD monitors is not a
situation in which I can reasonably imagine you would want to use
single-window mode; feel free to contradict me if you have experience
with this.)

There are no relevant GTK+ limitations. However I understand that with
the current GUI setup of GIMP, horizontal splits like
|IMG|IMG|
are easier to implement in terms of visual organization.

>
> For cloning you only need a tiny part of the source visible...

This is only true IMO if the source auto-scrolls as you clone.
Otherwise, especially when you need to be reasonably precise, you may
need a relatively large display (for example, 150x150 area @ 300% zoom
= 450x450)

>On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 8:30 PM, jolie S <forums@gimpusers.com> wrote:
>> Also I've slept on it and given it some more thought and I'd like to ask
>> again if you would please give having multiple images open at the same
time
>> some more thought.
>> IMO being able to work on more images at the same time is VITAL for a
>> professional image editing program. (just think of cloning to name 1
example)
>> Please give your users the options to do so in both modes, single and
multiple
>> windows.
>
>Peter's specification does give the option to have multiple images open at
once.
>Perhaps you mean having multiple images both visible and workable-upon
>at once. That's certainly important for things like cloning, as you
>said.
>
>Perhaps a split-panel option for single window mode would resolve
>this. (I believe we could still only reasonably show a maximum of 2
>images at once; this is simply a limitation of the single-window
>format AFAICS.)
>


"Being able to work on more images at the same" does indeed mean
workable-upon.

You could let the open and visible images you're working on at the same time
float all over the screen. Just as the user wants it. Be it underneath or over
the toolbox. ( a preference would be good for that.)
Paint shop pro does it that way, so does photoshop and my old pre-GIMP
software Picture Publisher did it that way too, and they are all single window
interfaces. It's definitely not something that can't be done.

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 01:00:15PM +0200, jolie S wrote:
> For me the big difference is usability.
> When I work in GIMP what happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next
> to a window of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown
> on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had visibly open
> below the GIMP windows.
> To get GIMP back you have to click on all your GIMP windows in the taskbar.

Actually you can work around this problem in your window manager by
selecting an image window and pressing the tab key twice. First to hide
the docks and the second to bring them back. This has the side effect of
raising them to the top of the window stack.

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:36:36 +0300
From: Ville =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E4tsi?= <drc@shadowdrama.net>

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 01:00:15PM +0200, jolie S wrote:
> For me the big difference is usability. When I work in GIMP what
> happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next to a window
> of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown
> on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had
> visibly open below the GIMP windows. To get GIMP back you have
> to click on all your GIMP windows in the taskbar.

Actually you can work around this problem in your window manager by
selecting an image window and pressing the tab key twice. First to
hide the docks and the second to bring them back. This has the side
effect of raising them to the top of the window stack.

Another way that won't be to everybody's choice is to use focus
follows mouse without autoraise, and use a shortcut to raise windows
to the top.

> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:36:36 +0300
> From: Ville =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E4tsi?= <drc@shadowdrama.net>
>
> On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 01:00:15PM +0200, jolie S wrote:
> > For me the big difference is usability. When I work in GIMP what
> > happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next to a window
> > of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown
> > on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had
> > visibly open below the GIMP windows. To get GIMP back you have
> > to click on all your GIMP windows in the taskbar.
>
> Actually you can work around this problem in your window manager by
> selecting an image window and pressing the tab key twice. First to
> hide the docks and the second to bring them back. This has the side
> effect of raising them to the top of the window stack.

I made a small video of what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T8jCDrYtmk


I hope that is clear :\

Hitting tabs twice doesn't work for bringing everything back. A "single
window" like in Picture Publisher, just to give an example, makes sure that
this problem doesn't even occur.

>Another way that won't be to everybody's choice is to use focus
>follows mouse without autoraise, and use a shortcut to raise windows
>to the top.
>

I'm sorry, I'm very tired today so it's probably me, but I don't know what
you mean with this.

On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 13:00 +0200, jolie S wrote:
>
> When I work in GIMP what happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next
> to a window of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown
> on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had visibly open
> below the GIMP windows.

Sounds like you have some combination of full-screen or "miaximised"
windows and also the option is set that makes windows come to the
front when you click on them.

If you want to get the most out of using multiple images in GIMP in
Linux, e.g. to be able to use drag and drop between them, you need
(1) "sloppy focus" (focus-sollows-mouse, but focus is not lost
when the pointer leaves the mouse window)
(2) turn off "auto-raise window on focus or click"

Now, if you have two overlapping windows and you click in the
lower one, it won't come to the front, clicking doesn't change
the "stacking order" of windows.

You can also assign a keyboard shortcut to "send the current window
to the back, or, if the current window isn't on top, bring it to
the top" -- I use <windows>-f for this (f for front). I'd be
happy to talk you through this using GNOME if it helps.

On MS Windows it's quicker to click on the active application
in the task bar and minimize or hide it to get back to GIMP.

[...]

> Also I've slept on it and given it some more thought and I'd like to ask
> again if you would please give having multiple images open at the same time
> some more thought.

I think the idea is that the single window might have multiple tabs, and
also maybe multiple panes.

Liam

Hi Jolie,

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 01:00:15PM +0200, jolie S wrote:
> When I work in GIMP what happens to me quite a lot is that I click
> just next to a window of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP
> windows are not shown on my screen anymore because I activated the
> application I had visibly open below the GIMP windows.

Many good tips have been offered for this problem. Here's my solution:
Never put one application window on top of another!

I use virtual desktops ("workspaces") and dedicate a workspace to each
application. If I ever need another application to share a workspace
with GIMP, for example for drag-n-drop, I bring it into the GIMP
workspace, do the d-n-d, and send it back home.

(I also use focus-follows mouse and no-autoraise :) )

HTH.

Tom

On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 23:49 -0400, Tom Rathborne wrote:

> (I also use focus-follows mouse and no-autoraise :) )

Interesting to see the focus-follows-mouse and no-autoraise combination
mentioned several times. In contrast, I use focus-follows-mouse with
autoraise (with 0 delay). It allows me to have a large image window that
partly covers 2 palette windows on the sides. Quick access to tools and
settings and large image view at the same time :)


Now from my understanding, the reason peter doesn't want single-window
with tabs combined with split views is simply that it would make it
unclear, which image the palettes and menu refer to. No matter how you
would try to deal with that, you always get a huge pile of additional
complexity.

Tempting to say: Allow split views via shift/ctrl-selecting tabs, have
all commands either affect both, or for those where that doesn't make
sense, disable them. Or duplicate the menu per split view. Also have the
split appear in the layers, channels and paths palettes. Just thinking
aloud :)

peter sikking writes:
> hey guys,
>
> I have now blogged about the single-window mode:
>
> <http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2009/09/gimp-single-mode.html>

I was really getting excited about getting tabs in the image
window (the "image parade" idea would achieve a similar function),
since it would make it so much easier to group similar images together
when I open them all at once.

But it looks like if I want that, I have to switch modes to
"single window mode", and then I give up two important features:

1. The ability to open an unrelated image quickly in another
window. For instance, I'm editing 7 photographs from the same trip,
and suddenly I need to make a quick change to a 250x50 web icon,
placing that window near the browser to see how it will look.
It doesn't make sense to open that image in the big window I'm
using for the photos.

2. The ability to open a second view on the image I'm editing,
zoomed to whatever level I need and placed somewhere that's not on
top of the current image. It's fine if second views are view-only
"Polaroids"; but if it's always zoomed out and placed partially on
top of the current image, it won't serve the function that Views
currently serve now.

Is there any chance you might allow those features to coexist with
tabs / image parades? It looks like you'll still allow the toolbox
and docks to be torn off; please consider allowing separate image
windows and views too.

Thanks!

...Akkana

Hi Peter,

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 07:26:10PM +0200, peter sikking wrote:
> I have now blogged about the single-window mode:
>
> <http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2009/09/gimp-single-mode.html>

Great ideas! I won't be a single-window mode user, mainly because my
window manager doesn't suck, but I would use tabs in multiple-window-mode.
(With no tabset displayed when there's only one tab in a window, to
maintain the current compact display!)

Cheers,

Tom

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:26 PM, peter sikking wrote:
> hey guys,
>
> I have now blogged about the single-window mode:
>
> <http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2009/09/gimp-single-mode.html>

Peter, I'm afraid this is not going to work for a lot of users.

Let's start with a mission statement: a user should be able to a)
compare several images and b) have editing access to multiple ones.

To me your proposal fails here, in both tasks. Let's go into details:

Comparison. You solve the comparison task by introducing windows that
overlay actual content and duplicate existing views of same images.
What needs to be thought about here is that there are two reasons to
compare images, and your proposal deals more or less nicely with just
one of them:

1. Quick comparison, basic overview of differences between several of
images, usually up to four. This is where your proposal sort of works,
up to a point where there are too many polaroids around overlaying
your current image. Think about poor netbook users with 1024x600px
displays. Two polaroids is best what they can allow.

2. Detailed comparison, when you lock view of several similar images
and thus get synced navigation. Your proposal sort of deals with this,
but what it basically does is creating temporary view windows on top
of just one current image. What is wrong with that? The fact that
detailed comparison is often coupled with introducing gradual changes
to several images. So this is time for the b) part of the mission
statement: Editing access to multiple images.

Why is it important to have access to several images at once? Consider
a situation when you have two versions of a project you've been
working on, that is -- two image windows/views. And you need to add
elements from a couple of other projects to both of them. It looks
like this:

1. You have a source file(s) window(s) and two target projects.
2. You pick, say, a group of layers from it and transfer (let's omit
details for now) it to a different image.
3. You do the same for the second target project.
4. In both target project you aply a number of changes (like
reordering objects in layer stack, moving dropped objects around,
applying some filters, etc.)
5. You overview changes in both target project and decide whether you
need something else from the source project(s).
6. If you do, you repeat steps 2-5.

What is the fastest way to drag'n'drop stuff (paths, layers,
selections etc.) from one window to another? By having image windows
side by side. Why is the presumably optional (C)SDI not right for the
task?

1. Because you don't always need that, so switching between (C)SDI and
MDI modes is tedious.
2. Because you don't always need that for *all* opened images, so when
you have five images opened and you need to see just two or three of
them at the same time, by switching to (C)SDI you end up with several
more images floating around that you don't really need right now.
3. Because in the upcoming new GUI using (C)SDI based UI means having
varios dialogs floating around, so you will have to manually resize
image windows to see both of them, which is, again, tedious.

You could say "Hey, then let's just drag'n'drop stuff to polaroids!".
But then you will still not have the editing functions available. So
why introducing polaroids that overlay actual content and do not allow
to edit content they display? If not polaroids, then what could be
done instead?

Custom tiling of images. The space inside working area should become a
container that can have both groups of tabs and tiles. You can drag an
inactive image using by its tab caption to either of the side of the
currently visible image, and they two will share tiled part of the
container. Then you can add another one. Each tile would have a sort
of draggable caption to help you distinguish one tile from another, so
if you don't need that image window anymore you just pick it and drag
back to the group of tabs, and the container would refit the rest of
the tiles.

Why is it better than the proposed solution?

1. Solves the need to view as many images as you need without adding
overlay clutter.
2. Solves the need to have a fast editing access to multiple images.
3. It's flexible - it's up to users how exactly they organize images
in their working environment.

There is a number of things to be thought here like exact method of
focusing between tiles (sloppy focus won't work, I guess), especially
re. drag'n'drop, but pretty please think about tiling.

For developers: CurlyAnkles gtk+ lib has tab/tile widgets I'm talking
about: URL.

Not that I'm suggesting to reuse it, but at least it demonstrates the
kind of flexibility I mean.

However I agree that the proposed polariod widget would help with
viewing same image in different zoom.

Now, as for the "filmstrip", it's quite okay, but I'd mention just one
thing here. It really would make sense to display basic metadata
there, e.g. title of an image. Because when all you see is a (even
large) preview of a 14 Mpx multilayered image and a very similar one
next to it, you can't alwyas say which one you need exactly.
Especially when it wasn't you who created the images and thus naming
of files isn't obvious to you. Whereas metadata can have that
information for you.

P.S. I do know that it's much easier to be a smartass (like me) than a
UI architect (like you) :)

Alexandre

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

> For developers: CurlyAnkles gtk+ lib has tab/tile widgets I'm talking
> about: URL.

Eeek, here is the missing URL:
http://curlyankles.sourceforge.net/widgets_docking.html

Alexandre