On 18/12/2013 09:11, FallenLegend wrote:

changing the brush size...Whwn with other programs you just haver to drag a mouse/sylus...

short cut keys '[' and ']', tablet ring, buttons and pen see-saw ? how many ways do you want to change brush sizes ?

On 18/12/2013 09:46, FallenLegend wrote:

short cut keys '[' and ']', tablet ring, buttons and pen see-saw ? how many ways do you want to change brush sizes ?

Just ONE that works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG5QOzODCBs

You are asking for a new feature... You have 4 ways from above that work, and work well, you are asking for another way which you like.

Please remember Photoshop is driven by a $$$ of investment, don't criticize a product you are getting for 'free' and comparing it against a project driven by $$$.

Constructive criticism is good and productive, but titles of 'GIMP interface sucks' is not constructive.

On 18/12/13 10:42, Andrew & Bridget wrote:

Please remember Photoshop is driven by a $$$ of investment, don't criticize a product you are getting for 'free' and comparing it against a project driven by $$$.

i very much dislike this mentality - I appreciate that software development costs money and time but I firmly believe Free Software can and should be better than proprietary software.

Also, to flip the coin there is lots of free and proprietary software with huge ammounts of money involved that is terrible. Just look at windows - no amount of cash will fix that ;)

Also, we don't get gimp for free: not really. We give our time here on lists and forums, and our money in donations too :)

FallenLegend - do you think that there are many other people who would also like this scrolling brush size feature you mention? Perhaps we can get it as a second project for Jehan to do on the openfunding site?

Thanks

Anna

Le 18/12/2013 12:08, Anna Morris a crit :

On 18/12/13 10:42, Andrew & Bridget wrote:

Please remember Photoshop is driven by a $$$ of investment, don't criticize a product you are getting for 'free' and comparing it against a project driven by $$$.

i very much dislike this mentality - I appreciate that software development costs money and time but I firmly believe Free Software can and should be better than proprietary software.

"Believing" is one thing.
"Truth" is something else.
"Making it happen" is something in between...

JL

On 12/18/2013 11:42 AM, Andrew & Bridget wrote:

On 18/12/2013 09:46, FallenLegend wrote:

short cut keys '[' and ']', tablet ring, buttons and pen see-saw ? how many ways do you want to change brush sizes ?

Just ONE that works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG5QOzODCBs

You are asking for a new feature... You have 4 ways from above that work, and work well, you are asking for another way which you like.

Please remember Photoshop is driven by a $$$ of investment, don't criticize a product you are getting for 'free' and comparing it against a project driven by $$$.

hi
I agree with you, this improvement needs a lot of work we're asking for another new feature which costs nothing : the possibility to enable save_save as_export gimp-2.6 behavior

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:28:43 +0100 From: qelvin5500@gmail.com
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp interface sucks

hi I agree with you, this improvement needs a lot of work we're asking for another new feature which costs nothing : the possibility to enable save_save as_export gimp-2.6 behavior

That discussion is over like disco. The consolation prize is that in latest versions of GIMP 2.8 if you use the wrong command the dialogue message you get has a link to instantly switch to the correct one.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

On 12/18/2013 08:09 PM, Richard wrote:

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:28:43 +0100

> From: qelvin5500@gmail.com
> To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp interface sucks >
> hi
> I agree with you, this improvement needs a lot of work > we're asking for another new feature which costs nothing : > the possibility to enable save_save as_export gimp-2.6 behavior

That discussion is over like disco. The consolation prize is that in latest versions of GIMP 2.8 if you use the wrong command the dialogue message you get has a link to instantly switch to the correct one.

maybe but save/export gimp-2.6 behavior (same as photoshop and most editors) is far better for advanced users

qelvin5500 (qelvin5500@gmail.com) wrote:

maybe but save/export gimp-2.6 behavior (same as photoshop and most editors) is far better for advanced users

maderios? Is that you?

Bye, Simon

simon@budig.de              http://simon.budig.de/

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:05:17 +0100 From: qelvin5500@gmail.com
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp interface sucks

On 12/18/2013 08:09 PM, Richard wrote:

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:28:43 +0100

> From: qelvin5500@gmail.com
> To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp interface sucks >
> hi
> I agree with you, this improvement needs a lot of work > we're asking for another new feature which costs nothing : > the possibility to enable save_save as_export gimp-2.6 behavior

That discussion is over like disco. The consolation prize is that in latest versions of GIMP 2.8 if you use the wrong command the dialogue message you get has a link to instantly switch to the correct one.

maybe but save/export gimp-2.6 behavior (same as photoshop and most editors) is far better for advanced users

No, that is a matter of debate. There was also a clear design flaw in that in GIMP 2.6, if you're working on a multi-layer XCF project, then save as a JPG, GIMP 2.6 loses the association to the XCF file (i.e. all further saves, including the "Save changes?" when you quit GIMP, target the JPG file, which may not be what you wanted).

To be fair, I'm not completely happy with the save/export change myself, but it is a valid design model, and the reasons behind it are solid. I mostly have gripes about the implementation.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Oops, this wasn't meant to be a private message, I must have hit the wrong button, sorry for that.

Johnny Rosenberg

2013/12/19 Johnny Rosenberg

2013/12/18 FallenLegend

There I said it.

It's the main reason GIMP is not as succesful as it could be. Sure GIMP is very
powerful

One example of people not liking the UI is this article

http://lifehacker.com/most-popular-photoshop-alternative-gimp-1484836993

The very existance of Gimpshop pro was a testament that people don't feel akward
working with gimp and it can be a nighmare to dos something as simple as changing the brush size...Whwn with other programs you just haver to drag a
mouse/sylus...

So use other programs then. What's the problem? No one is forcing you to use Gimp. If you like it, use it, if not, don't, how hard can it be? Feature suggestions are probably welcome, but ”Gimp interface sucks”? Come on! Grow up!

And I know that I do the same thing sometimes (not very often, I hope), shame on me. Then you should tell me to grow up! :)

Johnny Rosenberg

I am sure many open source fans will disagree with me so I will reply with any
article that complains about the user interface whenever I find one... to counter argue.

--
FallenLegend (via www.gimpusers.com/forums) _______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
List address: gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

On 12/19/2013 3:58 PM, FallenLegend wrote:

Oops, this wasn't meant to be a private message, I must have hit the wrong
button, sorry for that.

Johnny Rosenberg

2013/12/19 Johnny Rosenberg

Screw you. You admit being an hypocrite anbd you dare to call me to growup lol

I can critizise whatever I want and I don't regrey what I said. The interface sucks and not just me but many industry professionals share my opinion.

You don't like it, don't use it. Or are you waiting for somebody to kiss your rear to convince you to stay?

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 3:02 AM, John Meyer wrote:

I can critizise whatever I want and I don't regrey what I said. The interface
sucks and not just me but many industry professionals share my opinion.

You don't like it, don't use it. Or are you waiting for somebody to kiss your rear to convince you to stay?

Um, people...

Here's a direct quote from Martin Nordholts, one of our top-productive emeritus developers:

"Simply put, we know that GIMP's UI still sucks in many respects."

That was said in the public, in one of our mailing list. So no, it's not exactly evil to say in this ML that GIMP's UI sucks. It's OK to say that and still use GIMP and/or even develop it :) Just pretty please stop abusing the right for free speech.

Now for the feature in question... Krita has a simple on-canvas way to edit brush size. AFAIK, it's Ctrl+LMB+drag. It's a fairly reasonable solution, and I for one would welcome it.

Alexandre

On 20.12.2013 00:02, John Meyer wrote:

On 12/19/2013 3:58 PM, FallenLegend wrote:

I can critizise whatever I want and I don't regrey what I said. The interface
sucks and not just me but many industry professionals share my opinion.

You don't like it, don't use it. Or are you waiting for somebody to kiss your rear to convince you to stay?

And this stops right here.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

Fair enough, but criticism of an interface should go beyond movement of wind one way or another..

On 12/19/2013 4:15 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 3:02 AM, John Meyer wrote:

I can critizise whatever I want and I don't regrey what I said. The interface
sucks and not just me but many industry professionals share my opinion.

You don't like it, don't use it. Or are you waiting for somebody to kiss your rear to convince you to stay?

Um, people...

Here's a direct quote from Martin Nordholts, one of our top-productive emeritus developers:

"Simply put, we know that GIMP's UI still sucks in many respects."

That was said in the public, in one of our mailing list. So no, it's not exactly evil to say in this ML that GIMP's UI sucks. It's OK to say that and still use GIMP and/or even develop it :) Just pretty please stop abusing the right for free speech.

Now for the feature in question... Krita has a simple on-canvas way to edit brush size. AFAIK, it's Ctrl+LMB+drag. It's a fairly reasonable solution, and I for one would welcome it.

Alexandre _______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
List address: gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Now for the feature in question... Krita has a simple on-canvas way to
edit brush size. AFAIK, it's Ctrl+LMB+drag. It's a fairly reasonable solution, and I for one would welcome it.

When a mouse is in use, changing brush sizes without leaving the canvas is a snap - IF you set it up. The menu item for this is at Edit > Preferences > Input Controllers. Picture worth thousand words: http://pilobilus.net/img/mouse-scale-brush.jpg

I think this behavior, or something equivalent, should be a default GIMP setting; until then, setting it up as an optional user tweak is not a problem IF one knows it's available.

To change the brush size during tablet use, it should be possible to set up any unassigned keyboard shortcut to do the same thing in whatever size steps suit the user's needs. Caveat: I have not done this myself so I am only "presuming" it's an available option.

As to whether the whole GIMP UI sucks, yes. Yes it does. I think that's more because it's an image editor, than because of any specific shortcomings in design. In theory, improvement is always possible. In practice, computers are inherently evil and all programs suck, each in its own special ways.

:o)

Steve

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:50 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:

To change the brush size during tablet use, it should be possible to set up any unassigned keyboard shortcut to do the same thing in whatever size steps suit the user's needs. Caveat: I have not done this myself so I am only "presuming" it's an available option.

To the best of my knowledge (that is, from what I see in the LinuxInput dialog in front of me), you can't combine keyboard buttons and LinuxInput (e.g. Wacom) events.

As to whether the whole GIMP UI sucks, yes. Yes it does. I think that's more because it's an image editor, than because of any specific shortcomings in design.

It doesn't really matter what kind of an application you write. If you pile solutions on top of each other while they seem sorta kinda work, you end up with a horrible user experience.

There are, of course, specifics -- certain user interaction solutions that work better for some apps and worse -- for others. But uncareful UI design got GIMP into the situation where both photographers, retouchers, painters, and even scientists are not exactly fine with its UI.

Simply put, many existing user interaction decisions in GIMP appear to be based on the obsolete idea that dialogs are a great UI for anything. But the world has moved on since then, and on-canvas controls have been the new norm for quite a while. E.g. if you ever used on-canvas gradient fill tool in Inkscape and then tried editing a gradient in GIMP, I bet you said a few words you'd be ashamed to repeat in front of children :)

GIMP is getting there -- with new on-canvas progress indicator and a new text tool in 2.8, with Unified Transform tool and Warp Transform tool (which substitutes iWarp filter) in 2.10 etc. But it's going to take to become relevant again -- in terms of state-of-the-art UX solutions. Feathering of selections is just another example of on-canvas interaction clearly missing.

Alexandre

On 12/19/2013 08:22 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:50 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:

To change the brush size during tablet use, it should be possible to set up any unassigned keyboard shortcut to do the same thing in whatever size steps suit the user's needs. Caveat: I have not done this myself so I am only "presuming" it's an available option.

To the best of my knowledge (that is, from what I see in the LinuxInput dialog in front of me), you can't combine keyboard buttons and LinuxInput (e.g. Wacom) events.

Humm, how about independent of tablet events? I seem to recall that when I was setting up alt-wheel events to increase and decrease brush size, I was re-mapping existing keyboard shortcuts not referencing any other input device. I could be wrong...

[...]

Simply put, many existing user interaction decisions in GIMP appear to be based on the obsolete idea that dialogs are a great UI for anything. But the world has moved on since then, and on-canvas controls have been the new norm for quite a while. E.g. if you ever used on-canvas gradient fill tool in Inkscape and then tried editing a gradient in GIMP, I bet you said a few words you'd be ashamed to repeat in front of children :)

I always did find the GIMP gradient editor somewhat anti-intuitive and suck-ish around the edges. I would probably use it more often if it was not so...

GIMP is getting there -- with new on-canvas progress indicator and a new text tool in 2.8, with Unified Transform tool and Warp Transform tool (which substitutes iWarp filter) in 2.10 etc. But it's going to take to become relevant again -- in terms of state-of-the-art UX solutions. Feathering of selections is just another example of on-canvas interaction clearly missing.

It would be great if the 2.8 text tool worked, but it still has some deficiencies. For example, selecting all active text then changing the font in the tool dialog has no effect on the selected text. (All GIMP 2.8.x'es so far on Mint in Cinnamon or Xfce desktop sessions.) That annoys me quite often of late.

Also, tear off menus do not seem to work on Cinnamon, Gnome and Xfce; they tear off OK but to make a selection do anything, click to highlight then press the space bar to actually issue the command. Better users than I have reported great relief on discovering that the space bar makes tear off windows useable.

There's always going to be lots of room for improvement, and controversy, in anything as complex as the GIMP user interface. But on the whole I remain a happy camper.

:o)

Steve

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:50:23 -0500 From: admin@pilobilus.net
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp interface sucks

Now for the feature in question... Krita has a simple on-canvas way to
edit brush size. AFAIK, it's Ctrl+LMB+drag. It's a fairly reasonable solution, and I for one would welcome it.

When a mouse is in use, changing brush sizes without leaving the canvas is a snap - IF you set it up. The menu item for this is at Edit > Preferences > Input Controllers. Picture worth thousand words: http://pilobilus.net/img/mouse-scale-brush.jpg

:o)

Steve

That's indeed awesome, however, various OS's (like Windows) trap the Alt key for menubar activation so GIMP (GTK?) needs to distinguish that Alt+(something) = shortcut key and Alt (by itself) = activate the menubar. On which note, I am occasionally frustrated that pressing the ALT key in a GTK2+ app does not activate the menubar like every Windows user expects it to. (This applies to GIMP and Inkscape both.) This is a major suckage on the UI too (esp. if it's not reconfigurable), because alt key sequences are just as strong a habit as Ctrl+shortcut keys are.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Richard (strata_ranger@hotmail.com) wrote:

Edit > Preferences > Input Controllers. Picture worth thousand words: http://pilobilus.net/img/mouse-scale-brush.jpg

That's indeed awesome, however, various OS's (like Windows) trap the Alt key for menubar activation

Note that the preferences dialog in this screenshot allows you to assign the tools-paint-brush-scale-increase action to a different controller shortcut.

On which note, I am occasionally frustrated that pressing the ALT key in a GTK2+ app does not activate the menubar like every Windows user expects it to.

Hmm, for me (as a Linux user) pressing ALT underlines the menu-navigation-shortcuts in the menu. Hitting the underlined keys then enters the menu navigation mode and you can navigate the menu using the cursor keys or the underlined letters.

This is a major suckage on the UI too (esp. if it's not reconfigurable), because alt key sequences are just as strong a habit as Ctrl+shortcut keys are.

I am not really familiar with the typical windows program, but is this about the difference between (for creating a new image from the clipboard)

f t c (probably works in a windows program)

and

f t c (works for me in linux gimp)

?

Bye, Simon

simon@budig.de              http://simon.budig.de/

On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:29:06 +0100, Simon Budig wrote:

Hmm, for me (as a Linux user) pressing ALT underlines the menu-navigation-shortcuts in the menu. Hitting the underlined keys then enters the menu navigation mode and you can navigate the menu using the cursor keys or the underlined letters.

In Windows applications pressing and releasing Alt moves focus to the menubar, where you can then select commands either by using arrow keys and Enter, or by pressing the underlined letter. On Linux (in both GTK+ and Qt programs), just pressing and releasing Alt by itself doesn't do anything.

I am not really familiar with the typical windows program, but is this about the difference between (for creating a new image from the clipboard)
f t c (probably works in a windows program) and
f t c (works for me in linux gimp)

On Windows both of these should work, but the first one doesn't in GTK+ programs.

Another thing that differs is that if a menu is open, and you click outside it in a GTK+ program, that click is eaten if it's done in the window that the menu belongs to - on native Windows applications, the click is passed to the control the mouse cursor was pointing at regardless of whether it's in the same window or not.

< Jernej Simončič ><><><><>< http://eternallybored.org/ >

To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
From: jernej|s-gmane@eternallybored.org Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:57:46 +0100 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp interface sucks

I am not really familiar with the typical windows program, but is this about the difference between (for creating a new image from the clipboard)
f t c (probably works in a windows program) and
f t c (works for me in linux gimp)

On Windows both of these should work, but the first one doesn't in GTK+ programs.

And to a Windows user this is a bug.

I've worked on a few personal projects in MS Visual Studio (.NET) and I have seen that while pressing Alt activates the menu by default, this is overridable by the application if you need it to be, you just have to trap it during the keyup event from the Alt key. (I have one project where Alt+Mousewheel executes a function but Alt by itself passes through to menu activation.)

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

On 21.12.2013 19:51, Richard wrote:

From: jernej|s-gmane@eternallybored.org

f t c (probably works in a windows program) and
f t c (works for me in linux gimp)

On Windows both of these should work, but the first one doesn't in GTK+ programs.

And to a Windows user this is a bug.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=309298

Hasn't seen much activity yet.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD