proposal for new site structure

> A Wiki doesn't need to be editable by everyone. Just like with any other
> content management system, you can create accounts for a group of
> authors and no one else will be able to edit the site. The advantage is
> that it is very easy to use and doesn't require potential authors to
> learn yet another CMS.
>...
> Look at it this way: We have a system that is installed, ready to use.
> Authors and publishers can already add information to our web-site and
> edit what's there. Still there aren't many contributions. What is Joomla
> going to change about that? In my opinion it is much more important to
> focus on content and structure. The choice of the CMS shouldn't be the
> major aspect of a redesign.

Ah, sorry. I didn't realise you had a CMS already in place.

> Again, how are people supposed to work with the authors of the
> user-manual without talking to them? And that effectively means being
> subscribed to the gimp-docs mailing-list. Seriously, if someone isn't
> willing to go through a little hassle to volunteer, then maybe there
> isn't really that much interest to contribute?

You have a point there but still, people shouldn't really need to jump through
hoops to be able to offer a little help. Every little helps. Just having an
email address that would give a quick response would be enough... ?

> I agree. But how do you propose that this is being changed? You said you
> don't want a public Wiki. So people willing to volunteer will have to
> ask for an account on the web-site?
> Currently you can at least checkout the web-site from Subversion, build
> it locally, edit pages and prepare patches. Something that you probably
> won't be able to do if we switch to a more dynamic CMS.

My fault, I didn't realise your site was already a CMS. Sorry...

> Getting more downloads is really not a priority of the GIMP project. We
> are trying to make good software and we like to have fun working on it.
> More downloads doesn't do much to improve the fun we have in developing
> GIMP.

True, but I just think that GIMP is such a good piece of software that it
deserves to have more users. More people need to realise that Photoshop is
not the be all and end all that most think it is...

> But yes, I would love to see the web-site being redesigned and I agree
> with a lot of points you have brought up. I am also not saying that the
> next generation of gimp.org shouldn't be using Joomla. I just haven't
> seen a compelling argument for it yet and I am missing a decent proposal
> for the structure and content of the new website.

Using the CMS you have, redesigning the graphics and updating the information,
here's the structure i was thinking of (with some brief notes) :

index/News
(latest news from developers etc)

Screens
(grabs of current and future versions)

Features
(list main features of GIMP by pointing out relevant buttons on the GIMP
toolbar(s)
Gimp in Film (etc)

History
(would replace About and include History sections in one page)

Downloads
(one page with anchors to each edition)
Source
Linux/Unix
Windows
MacOSX

Documentation
(help files, online documentation etc)
Books
Tutorials
(have screens of what each tutorial will accomplish)
Mailing Lists
(update current info)

Get Involved
(point to mailing lists, webmaster email, IRC, hacking, development,
documentation)
Donating
Bug Reports
GIMP Goods
(include images of the products)

Links
(organise links here and from other pages)

Rather than describe things, i like to show people things so pages would
include more graphics than the site currently uses but it would NOT be too
graphical! I only have .5mb broadband myself and I hate graphic heavy/flash
sites! I realise (the hard way) that not everyone in the world has mega-fast
broadband...

Sorry for the misunderstanding, with no visible login page or php pages I just
(foolishly, I admit) assumed that the pages were all basic HTML and probably
created from a template.

Hi,

On Fri, 2007-03-09 at 01:05 +0000, Ronnie Tucker wrote:

> You have a point there but still, people shouldn't really need to jump through
> hoops to be able to offer a little help. Every little helps. Just having an
> email address that would give a quick response would be enough... ?

Who is supposed to handle these emails? Do you even have a vague idea
how much support requests, frequently asked questions and spam such an
email account would get? We don't have people in a support center that
are being paid to handle such junk.

> > Currently you can at least checkout the web-site from Subversion, build
> > it locally, edit pages and prepare patches. Something that you probably
> > won't be able to do if we switch to a more dynamic CMS.
>
> My fault, I didn't realise your site was already a CMS. Sorry...

I think that it might help to look at the current web site, also from a
technical point of view, before you propose a replacement.

> Using the CMS you have, redesigning the graphics and updating the information,
> here's the structure i was thinking of (with some brief notes) :
>
> index/News
> (latest news from developers etc)
>
> Screens
> (grabs of current and future versions)
>
> Features
> (list main features of GIMP by pointing out relevant buttons on the GIMP
> toolbar(s)
> Gimp in Film (etc)
>
> History
> (would replace About and include History sections in one page)
>
> Downloads
> (one page with anchors to each edition)
> Source
> Linux/Unix
> Windows
> MacOSX
>
> Documentation
> (help files, online documentation etc)
> Books
> Tutorials
> (have screens of what each tutorial will accomplish)
> Mailing Lists
> (update current info)
>
> Get Involved
> (point to mailing lists, webmaster email, IRC, hacking, development,
> documentation)
> Donating
> Bug Reports
> GIMP Goods
> (include images of the products)
>
> Links
> (organise links here and from other pages)

Thanks for the nice proposal. Looks good to me.

> Sorry for the misunderstanding, with no visible login page or php pages I just
> (foolishly, I admit) assumed that the pages were all basic HTML and probably
> created from a template.

Did I say that they aren't? I also did not say that we should continue
to use our current system. I don't like it very much either. But it
would be worthwhile to look at it and realise the pros and cons. One of
the good things of the current system is that the content on the
web-server is static. That has proven to make it a lot easier to keep
the server going whenever GIMP ends up being discussed on slashdot and
similar sites.


Sven

On Friday 09 March 2007 02:05:41 Ronnie Tucker wrote:
> Using the CMS you have, redesigning the graphics and updating the
> information, here's the structure i was thinking of (with some brief
> notes) :

Here is what I did with Ronnie's proposal:

> index/News
> (latest news from developers etc)

News now goes back to the index page (as clicking on the top banner
does), as the feed is already accessible at the bottom of the menu.
Another possibility would be to add a smaller feed icon next to that
menu item.

> Screens
> (grabs of current and future versions)

Screenshots moved up as suggested, I didn't rename it "Screens" as I've
never seen that term elsewhere.
The screenshot page only has current version screenshots for the
moment. I wonder if future versions are not better placed in the
release notes.

> Features
> (list main features of GIMP by pointing out relevant buttons
> on the GIMP toolbar(s)
> Gimp in Film (etc)

Added Features, pointing to the release notes. The content will be
reviewed to have something more appealing. I only added a link to the
2.4 release notes for now.

I don't think Gimp in Film and others should be added as submenus: they
are merely external links. I just added a "GIMP everywhere" submenu,
and I have moved them from the About page to there instead.

> History
> (would replace About and include History sections in one page)

Renamed "About GIMP" to "History", and moved the last parts to the
"GIMP everywhere" page.
I'm not sure I understand "include History sections in one page"

> Downloads
> (one page with anchors to each edition)
> Source
> Linux/Unix
> Windows
> MacOSX

The bottom download links have been moved up to make submenus.

> Documentation
> (help files, online documentation etc)
> Books
> Tutorials
> (have screens of what each tutorial will accomplish)
> Mailing Lists
> (update current info)

Images in the tutorial list are not added yet. Mailing lists not
updated (I don't know yet what needs updating, I'll have to check).

I've also kept the wiki link there.

> Get Involved
> (point to mailing lists, webmaster email, IRC, hacking,
> development, documentation)
> Donating
> Bug Reports
> GIMP Goods
> (include images of the products)

GIMP Stuff renamed and moved here, no products images yet.

> Links
> (organise links here and from other pages)

There are some redundancy in the History links and those links. Looks
like the important links list is not the same. I've just merged them
for now, and they are left on both pages. I'm not sure GIMP planets
should be kept in the important links by the way.


So, what is left to do to complete that restructuring:
- the Features page (release notes currently) needs a complete review.
- add images to the tutorials list
- add images to the goods list

This is not a complete list to bring the website up-to-date with GIMP
2.4. There are surely many other items to review, such as:
- prepare 2.4 screenshots to replace the 2.2 ones in Screenshots
- update tutorials (mainly menu paths and screenshots)
and probably much more...

Karine

Hi List,

the GIMP manual already has lots of content. Some of it might be
useful for the Website, so I'd like to leave some comments:

Am 18.03.2007 um 12:07 schrieb Karine Delvare:

> On Friday 09 March 2007 02:05:41 Ronnie Tucker wrote:
>
>> History
>> (would replace About and include History sections in one page)
>
> Renamed "About GIMP" to "History", and moved the last parts to the
> "GIMP everywhere" page.
> I'm not sure I understand "include History sections in one page"

There is a huge GIMP history article at http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-
introduction-history.html (note, that this is even translated into a
lot of languages). May be this can be used for the website or may be
connected by a link. Even the Manual is rebuild pretty often, the URL
can be assumed to be stable.

...

>
>> Documentation
>> (help files, online documentation etc)
>> Books
>> Tutorials
>> (have screens of what each tutorial will accomplish)
>> Mailing Lists
>> (update current info)
>

Some of the content of the documentation section is also contained in
the manual. I'd suggest rather to link to the GIMP manual / online
help then to duplicate the content - only very essential things
should be duplicated IMHO.
Content that I'd suggest to replace by a link to the manual is:

The configuration section at http://next.gimp.org/docs/
to be replaced by
- http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-fire-up.html#gimp-concepts-running
- http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-using-setup-tile-cache.html

I also seriously doubt, that the man pages for gimp, gimprc, gimp-
remote and gimptool are very useful for the average reader. The man
gimp can be found in the manual, gimp-remote is dead and the gimptool
is needed for devs only ?!

Greetings, lexA

Btw. I like the new look of the pages as much as I love to see that
somebody cares for the site again!

---
Remember: There are only two tools in life. WD-40, for when something
doesn't move, and should, and Duct Tape, for when something is moving
and it shouldn't.
So does the universe explode if you spray duct tape with WD-40?

Hi,

On Sun, 2007-03-18 at 16:49 +0100, Axel Wernicke wrote:

> I also seriously doubt, that the man pages for gimp, gimprc, gimp-
> remote and gimptool are very useful for the average reader. The man
> gimp can be found in the manual, gimp-remote is dead and the gimptool
> is needed for devs only ?!

The man-pages are very important and they should be kept online because
they aren't always installed together with gimp. For Windows users the
online version is the only way to read the manual pages.


Sven

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:49:34 +0100
Axel Wernicke <axel.wernicke@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi List,
>
> the GIMP manual already has lots of content. Some of it might be
> useful for the Website, [...]

Thanks Axel, that's a good idea, we should use your suggestions for the
history and the documentation. I won't do that now as I have started
working on the tutorials, so if anyone feels tempted...

> Btw. I like the new look of the pages as much as I love to see that
> somebody cares for the site again!

Yes, it seems jimmac's redesign set something in motion, and that is
nice :)

Karine

Hi Karine,

Sorry, the proposal was just brief notes to remind myself of some things...

On Sunday 18 March 2007 11:07, Karine Delvare wrote:
> Here is what I did with Ronnie's proposal:
> > index/News
> > (latest news from developers etc)
>
> News now goes back to the index page (as clicking on the top banner
> does), as the feed is already accessible at the bottom of the menu.
> Another possibility would be to add a smaller feed icon next to that
> menu item.

I was thinking more that when people click News it would take them back to the
index page where the latest news would be, almost blog like, at the bottom of
the index page, which is what I think you have?


> > Screens
> > (grabs of current and future versions)
> Screenshots moved up as suggested, I didn't rename it "Screens" as I've
> never seen that term elsewhere.
> The screenshot page only has current version screenshots for the
> moment. I wonder if future versions are not better placed in the
> release notes.

It could maybe include screens showing off some of the things Gimp can do.
Some of the Filter screens (showing the controls and preview for a particular
filter) and so on ?


> > Features
> > (list main features of GIMP by pointing out relevant buttons
> > on the GIMP toolbar(s)
> > Gimp in Film (etc)
> Added Features, pointing to the release notes. The content will be
> reviewed to have something more appealing. I only added a link to the
> 2.4 release notes for now.

For the Features page I was thinking maybe a screenshot of The Gimp's panels
with very brief explanations of some of the features, with arrows pointing to
that features button/menu item ??
That could probably be done as an image (with the text and arrows) ?


> > History
> > (would replace About and include History sections in one page)
> Renamed "About GIMP" to "History", and moved the last parts to the
> "GIMP everywhere" page.
> I'm not sure I understand "include History sections in one page"

What I meant by that was maybe the seven history pages should be rewritten as
one single page ?


> > Downloads
> > (one page with anchors to each edition)
> > Source
> > Linux/Unix
> > Windows
> > MacOSX
> The bottom download links have been moved up to make submenus.

I should probably have put the download links in a better order in my proposal
as I would probably put Linux/Unix at the top (with a list of RPM's/DEB's
etc) then Windows, Mac and Source being last, as i'm sure most people do not
want to compile the source, this may frighten users off...


> > Documentation
> > (help files, online documentation etc)
> > Books
> > Tutorials
> > (have screens of what each tutorial will accomplish)
> > Mailing Lists
> > (update current info)
> Images in the tutorial list are not added yet. Mailing lists not
> updated (I don't know yet what needs updating, I'll have to check).

For mailing list, i'd mention that people need to sign up to the mailing list
before they email to it. I've had a couple of people email me thinking their
email would show up on the mailing list but didn't. They hadn't joined the
mailing list first...


> > Get Involved
> > (point to mailing lists, webmaster email, IRC, hacking,
> > development, documentation)
> > Donating
> > Bug Reports
> > GIMP Goods
> > (include images of the products)
> GIMP Stuff renamed and moved here, no products images yet.

Again, the getting involved page could maybe do with a rewrite to tell people
how they go about getting involved in the project. Explaining the mailing
list, maybe a brief help on getting connected to IRC, donation buttons
(paypal etc?)...


> > Links
> > (organise links here and from other pages)
> There are some redundancy in the History links and those links. Looks
> like the important links list is not the same. I've just merged them
> for now, and they are left on both pages. I'm not sure GIMP planets
> should be kept in the important links by the way.

In the current (hopefully soon to be old) site the links are scattered all
over the place, i'd have gathered them up and put them all into this Links
page...


> So, what is left to do to complete that restructuring:
> - the Features page (release notes currently) needs a complete review.
> - add images to the tutorials list
> - add images to the goods list
> This is not a complete list to bring the website up-to-date with GIMP
> 2.4. There are surely many other items to review, such as:
> - prepare 2.4 screenshots to replace the 2.2 ones in Screenshots
> - update tutorials (mainly menu paths and screenshots)
> and probably much more...

Well, as I said, i'm pretty hopeless with SVN but I can write and do graphics
stuff so if you need stuff written or screens made up feel free to set me a
task and i could write stuff and email it to you for inclusion? Just let me
know whether you'd prefer stuff as html/text.

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:13:30 +0000
Ronnie Tucker <ronnie@ronnietucker.co.uk> wrote:

> I was thinking more that when people click News it would take them
> back to the index page where the latest news would be, almost blog
> like, at the bottom of the index page, which is what I think you have?

Yes, the News currently goes back to the index page (not the bottom of
it as the news are in reverse order, more recent one at the top).

As for Screenshots and Features, the content can change a lot, I know
people have something more graphical in mind and I hope the content
will be updated. I think screenshots should stay full screen grabs as
they are, to show some different GIMP setups (like one with jimmac's
dark theme to work on photography, etc...) - while the features page
may have interface details and dialog examples.

> > I'm not sure I understand "include History sections in one page"
>
> What I meant by that was maybe the seven history pages should be
> rewritten as one single page ?

I don't think so, keeping the original links to the mailing list
archives is nice. But maybe that section could have a bit more details
so that people not wanting to click on each link can read the short
history.

> I should probably have put the download links in a better order in my
> proposal as I would probably put Linux/Unix at the top (with a list
> of RPM's/DEB's etc) then Windows, Mac and Source being last, as i'm
> sure most people do not want to compile the source, this may frighten
> users off...

I will reorder them, it has indeed more sense. I think it's important
to keep the Source submenu, even if not many people coming to the
website are interested in the sources, so last item is ok for me.

> For mailing list, i'd mention that people need to sign up to the
> mailing list before they email to it. I've had a couple of people
> email me thinking their email would show up on the mailing list but
> didn't. They hadn't joined the mailing list first...

David Marrs is working on the mailing list pages as far as I know.

> Again, the getting involved page could maybe do with a rewrite to
> tell people how they go about getting involved in the project.
> Explaining the mailing list, maybe a brief help on getting connected
> to IRC, donation buttons (paypal etc?)...

I'll be able to update that, as that is the subject of the talk I give
at LGM.

> Well, as I said, i'm pretty hopeless with SVN but I can write and do
> graphics stuff so if you need stuff written or screens made up feel
> free to set me a task and i could write stuff and email it to you for
> inclusion? Just let me know whether you'd prefer stuff as html/text.

Anything will do, if you don't provide svn patches I will have to
rework it anyway. Content help is appreciated :)

Karine

On Sunday 18 March 2007 18:46, Karine Delvare wrote:
> > > I'm not sure I understand "include History sections in one page"
> > What I meant by that was maybe the seven history pages should be
> > rewritten as one single page ?
> I don't think so, keeping the original links to the mailing list
> archives is nice. But maybe that section could have a bit more details
> so that people not wanting to click on each link can read the short
> history.

Sorry, by History I meant the seven links that are sub-categories of GIMP
History, which is on the History link (now the 'About' page)...

But the history page reads ok (ancient history), i'd maybe just put a couple
of links into the history page linking to the original emails which announce
The Gimp (Two Questions, One of Two Options etc), rather than just have them
sitting there on the page, kinda orphaned. Having the announcement emails
before - and seperate from - the history might confuse people (ie; why am I
reading emails about gimp 0.xx announcements?)

I will certainly help with any re-writes that need done or screengrabs... i
will try and email you something shortly. Anything in particular you think
needs done first?

I've attached changes to the mail_lists.htrw page. I'd have attached them sooner
were it not for myrealbox having a crisis. Next on my todo list is the "about"
section. I'll make a start on that if it's not already taken.

I find the current menu structure something cluttered.
Here's my proposal (is similar to Ronnie's, with some differences):

1- Homepage and Main Menu.

I think there are too many "buttons" in the menu. They should be
re-arranged in a more hierarchical way, leaving just the main groups in
the menu. Then, the main menu could be placed horizontally on the top of
the banner for better consistency between the different pages.
The current menu bar could work listing the sub-categories of each menu
item.
A nice and easy to browse structure could be this:
-Home/News (just as now).
-Features
-Download
-Documentation
-Comunity
-Development

There are some contents that shouldn't be hidden inside the content
sections, though. That contents (could be screenshots, direct download,
gimp everywhere, etc.) would be placed as hilights in the right pane
(currently occupied by the menu), and not as text links but attractive
graphic buttons.
A nice sample of this is the Inscape's site, where they place a random
screenshot at the homepage.
Other items for this part could be: Getting involved (redirecting to a
section with the links of Development and Community sections), Users
Gallery (as in blender's site, a monthly updated gallery with a
selection of the best user submitted works), link to feature videos,
F.A.Q.s, etc.
All this with a "promotional" intention more than navigational function.

2- Sections:
There should be a standard wireframe for the sections. This wireframe
must mantain consistency through different sections to provide usability
and intuitive navigation.
My propose is to use the right pane to list the TOC of the section only,
keeping the main navigation on the top menu.

3-Sections contents:

3.a- FEATURES:
-Short description of Gimp
-Screenshots (they're not features themselves, but illustrate the
features in action)
-Hilighted Features.
-Feature videos.
- More features (a comprehensive list of the complete features)

3.b- DOWNLOAD
This section is already nicely organized in next.gimp.org. I'd only put
some css love in the mirrors part to make it more compact.
A couple of items could be added here, as extra resources:
-The plugin repository
-Link to downloadable documentation.

3.c- DOCUMENTATION
-History/Splash Archive
-F.A.Q.s
-Tutorials
-Books
-Screenshots
-Wiki
-Mailing Lists

3.d- COMMUNITY
-Gimp User Group/s
-Links to international forums and sites dedicated to the Gimp.
-Mailing lists (user focused)
-IRC user channels
-Bug Tracker
-Links to other software related with Gimp for a free/OSS graphics
pipeline.

3-e- DEVELOPMENT
- A selection of introductory articles on getting involved in Gimp
Development and direct links to developer.gimp.org.
- Mailing Lists (dev focused)
- IRC dev channels
- Bug Tracker

---
Ok, These are my suggestions for the new contents. I think they could
improve the look and feel of the site and make both newbies and advanced
users feel comfortable with it
What do you think?

Gez.

Guillermo Espertino wrote:
> I find the current menu structure something cluttered.

I agree. I'd like to suggest a rearrangement of the ABOUT section, since I was
about to start work editing this.

> A nice and easy to browse structure could be this:
> -Home/News (just as now).
> -Features
> -Download
> -Documentation
> -Comunity
> -Development
>
I would change "Features" to "About". Most websites have an about section and,
like "Contact Us" and "Home", it's probably one of those entries a user scans for.

3.a- ABOUT
-Short description of Gimp
-Screenshots (now makes sense to be here)
-Hilighted Features.
-Feature videos.
- More features (a comprehensive list of the complete features.
Should be linked from highlighted features page.
I don't think it's necessary to include it in the menu itself.)
- History/Splash Archive (taken from DOCUMENTATION).

It may be nice to allow users to expand sub-menus using javascript animations.
Links should still be provided to those sub-sections from within the top-level
pages to help those who are confused by js and the menu should default to
expanded when no js is detected.

Regards,
DavidM

Did somebody actually read the contents of Gimp Everywhere?
If somebody's suggesting that Gimp (this Gimp, not Cinepaint) was used
in Scooby Doo, maybe is time to read the article.
I'd wait to have better contents for this section before publishing it.

Gez.

Hi,

On Sun, 2007-03-18 at 18:44 -0300, Guillermo Espertino wrote:
> Did somebody actually read the contents of Gimp Everywhere?

Sorry, but where is this document?


Sven

Sven Neumann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 2007-03-18 at 18:44 -0300, Guillermo Espertino wrote:
>> Did somebody actually read the contents of Gimp Everywhere?
>
> Sorry, but where is this document?
>

I think he's referring to http://next.gimp.org/about/everywhere.html

According to the linked article, Scooby Doo used Film-Gimp which, if my history
serves me correctly, was a branch of the Gimp project before it was forked into
Cinepaint, so the link isn't inaccurate. However, it could mislead people into
thinking the current stable version of Gimp is suitable for Hollywood budget
film work, which it isn't.