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Gif support

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Gif support Clayton Coleman 23 Dec 03:24
  Gif support Joshua Thorin Messer 23 Dec 10:35
   Gif support Marc) (A.) (Lehmann 23 Dec 10:56
    Gif support Damien Genet 23 Dec 11:19
    Gif support Thomi Richards 23 Dec 11:23
     Gif support Joshua Thorin Messer 23 Dec 11:38
     Gif support Marc) (A.) (Lehmann 23 Dec 13:53
    Gif support Joshua Thorin Messer 23 Dec 11:36
    Gif support PL O'Smith 23 Dec 17:35
     Gif support Marc) (A.) (Lehmann 23 Dec 17:53
   Gif support Carol Spears 23 Dec 18:40
    Gif support Philippe Rousselot 23 Dec 20:08
     Gif support Philippe Rousselot 23 Dec 20:37
      Gif support Nigel Ridley 23 Dec 21:01
      Gif support PL O'Smith 23 Dec 21:10
       Gif support Philippe Rousselot 23 Dec 23:12
  Gif support Nigel Ridley 23 Dec 12:08
Clayton Coleman
2002-12-23 03:24:44 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

I'm sure this has been asked a lot, but is there any way to get gif support for the Gimp? I currently do a lot of web development, and hope to switch to all-linux. My main issue right now is of course, no gif support. Currently browsers do not support PNG widely enough to use PNG instead. I am not above paying for a gif liscense, I just can't find any documentation on how to get gif support included.
I'm running RH8 Psyche, which came with the latest version of the Gimp.

Thanks, Clayton

Joshua Thorin Messer
2002-12-23 10:35:58 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

Thus spake Clayton Coleman (clayton@cxodesigns.net):

I'm sure this has been asked a lot, but is there any way to get gif support for the Gimp? I currently do a lot of web development, and hope to switch to all-linux. My main issue right now is of course, no gif support. Currently browsers do not support PNG widely enough to use PNG instead. I am not above paying for a gif liscense, I just can't find any documentation on how to get gif support included.
I'm running RH8 Psyche, which came with the latest version of the Gimp.

Read this thread:
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/gimp-user/2002-July/004786.html just in case it is that easy. I think these days most systems come with gif support, and gif in gimp should "just work."

I use gimp on gentoo, I have gif support. Everything is compiled from scratch for me, and I have gif in my USE flags, so if something has gif support it will be compiled in. You may have to install libgif or libungif and then compile gimp from source.

Also, I think you are dead wrong about PNG support. What browsers don't support them properly? I use konqueror, mozilla, phoenix and Opera and I seem to have decent PNG support with alpha in most of these, since about 2000. Is netscape 4.x holding you back? If so, good luck waiting for that to change.

Oh, wait when you wrote "Currently browsers do not support PNG widely enough to use PNG instead" you might have meant "Currently Internet Explorer on Windows..." in which you are correct. But guess what? If the net is full of alpha-transparent png files, IE will change quickly enough. They haven't implemented this standard YET because everyone is so quick to bow to their unholy monopoly. So why does IE on Mac have perfect support for png alpha channel and gamma adjustment?

Marc) (A.) (Lehmann
2002-12-23 10:56:39 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

On Mon, Dec 23, 2002 at 01:35:58AM -0800, Joshua Thorin Messer wrote:

Oh, wait when you wrote "Currently browsers do not support PNG widely enough to use PNG instead" you might have meant "Currently

The striking majority of browsers, not only IE on Windows. And PNG can't do animations, which are very important. So GIF will need to stay around for some time :(

Damien Genet
2002-12-23 11:19:26 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

Le lun 23/12/2002 à 10:56, pcg@goof.com a écrit :

The striking majority of browsers, not only IE on Windows. And PNG can't do animations, which are very important. So GIF will need to stay around for some time :(

Well IE supports png not too badly, except for the alpha transparency in 24bit (but gif can't do 24bit either), as far as i remember netscape4 doesn't support png transparency at all. There is a hack to be able to load transparency with IE 6 : http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q294714

The png animations will be handled by the mng format, wich is not widely available yet... And btw, what do you really need animated gif for ? ;)

Thomi Richards
2002-12-23 11:23:38 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

The striking majority of browsers, not only IE on Windows. And PNG can't do animations, which are very important. So GIF will need to stay around for some time :(

which ones exactly? as stated before, mozilla, netscape (the later versions), konqueror, even dillo works with png's.

Joshua Thorin Messer
2002-12-23 11:36:29 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

Thus spake Marc A. Lehmann (pcg@goof.com):

The striking majority of browsers, not only IE on Windows. And PNG can't do animations, which are very important. So GIF will need to stay around for some time :(

Please follow my lead and list some specific browsers that do not support png quite well. Other than IE, konqueror is the worst in my experience, and it does 32 bit RGBA perfectly. Mac IE, konqueror, mozilla (thus Netscape 6+ and all mozilla based browsers such as phoenix, k-meleon, galeon, and chimera), and Opera 6.0+ all do png very well. I will admit that IE on Windows represents a majority of internet users, imagine how fast Microsoft will comply with the W3C standard if their users start missing out on content. Use png becuase it is better and not encumbered. Microsoft will only change if the must. I don't think, however, you can claim that one browser on one platform (ok, two, but how many HP-UX IE users are there?) constitutes "the striking majority of browsers". Name me some names if you want to have a discussion, because you think other browsers can't do it doesn't mean they can't, get the facts here: http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pngapbr.html and test YOUR browser here: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha.html

Also note that what is broken in IE for Windows is TRUE ALPHA TRANSPARENCY. GIF doesn't even DO true alpha transparency.

Now that I've made a complete arse of myself, I'm booting windows to look at these pages in IE and see how bad they are.

Ok, you have me on animation. MNG support isn't great right now. Neither is another superior technology, SVG. But I still think the only way to change things is to use the best technology and FORCE the browser makers to comply with these standards. Otherwise the can use the excuse: "But no one needs [SVG|PNG|MNG|Insert superior un-patent-encumbered-non-closed technology here] support because there's no content in that format". Meanwhile, us designers are saying, "I'm not making content in the standards-supported superior formats because the browsers don't support it well yet". Anyone else detect an insidious pattern here?

Joshua Thorin Messer
2002-12-23 11:38:50 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

Thus spake Thomi Richards (thomi@thomi.imail.net.nz):

The striking majority of browsers, not only IE on Windows. And PNG can't do animations, which are very important. So GIF will need to stay around for some time :(

which ones exactly? as stated before, mozilla, netscape (the later versions), konqueror, even dillo works with png's.

Thank you. Hell, even NetPositive on BeOS does png quite well. Is lynx the problem here? Or Netscape 4.x? If so I don't see what's holding you back.

Nigel Ridley
2002-12-23 12:08:21 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:24:44 -0500 Clayton Coleman wrote:

I'm sure this has been asked a lot, but is there any way to get gif support for the Gimp? I currently do a lot of web development, and hope to switch to all-linux. My main issue right now is of course, no gif support. Currently browsers do not support PNG widely enough to use PNG instead. I am not above paying for a gif liscense, I just can't find any documentation on how to get gif support included. I'm running RH8 Psyche, which came with the latest version of the Gimp.

Thanks, Clayton

Marc) (A.) (Lehmann
2002-12-23 13:53:30 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

On Mon, Dec 23, 2002 at 11:23:38PM +1300, Thomi Richards wrote:

The striking majority of browsers, not only IE on Windows. And PNG can't do animations, which are very important. So GIF will need to stay around for some time :(

which ones exactly? as stated before, mozilla, netscape (the later versions), konqueror, even dillo works with png's.

That's a useless game. You can count the number of browsers supporting PNG with one or two hands. Obviously there exist many more browsers.

Basically, that follows the "all the world is windows and linux"-way of thinking, which is just as bad as "all the world is ie"-way of thinking.

Even most versions of the browsers (netscape, konquerer, and my more like links, opera etc.) you cited don't support PNG, or not properly. And probably none of them support MNG.

PL O'Smith
2002-12-23 17:35:38 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

On Monday 23 December 2002 04:56 am, pcg@goof.com ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) wrote:

On Mon, Dec 23, 2002 at 01:35:58AM -0800, Joshua Thorin Messer

wrote:

Oh, wait when you wrote "Currently browsers do not support PNG widely enough to use PNG instead" you might have meant "Currently

The striking majority of browsers, not only IE on Windows. And PNG can't do animations, which are very important. So GIF will need to stay around for some time :(

----------------------------
Well Marc,
Actually PNG does do animations and they are called MNG. So unless you have several thousand dollars lying around you want to use to pay the GIF owners for using those on your site, PNG pretty much takes care of everything now. Plus as Joshua mentioned all the "really good" browsers already support PNG stuff now. Netscape I believe mentioned they were dropping any further support for the 4.xx versions and I guess M$ will have to come around with IE if they want to continue peddling their junk to users.

Patrick --- KMail v1.4.3 --- SuSE Linux Pro v8.1 --- Registered Linux User #225206

Marc) (A.) (Lehmann
2002-12-23 17:53:25 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

On Mon, Dec 23, 2002 at 11:35:38AM -0500, PL O'Smith wrote:

Actually PNG does do animations and they are called MNG.

Actually PNG does NOT do animations, and it's not called MNG ;)

Both tiff and jpeg can store jpeg-like and losless images, they are still different. MNG and PNG a much more similar, but still different file format.

have several thousand dollars lying around you want to use to pay the GIF owners for using those on your site, PNG pretty much takes care of everything now.

Yes, except animations, which, while an understandable decision, is _probably_ the reason for the still widespread usage of GIF.

Also, you don't have to pay anything for GIF support, and nobody "owns" it. The problem are lzw-compressed gifs, which are the most common.

Please, read my original post. It makes no sense arguing about sth. I didn't say nor think myself :)

My original post stated a fact. You might not like it, I _do_ not like it, it might not even be of practical consequences (who cares for minority platforms), but all that doesn't change it.

Carol Spears
2002-12-23 18:40:21 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

On 2002-12-23 at 0135.58 -0800, Joshua Thorin Messer typed this:

Oh, wait when you wrote "Currently browsers do not support PNG widely enough to use PNG instead" you might have meant "Currently Internet Explorer on Windows..." in which you are correct. But guess what? If the net is full of alpha-transparent png files, IE will change quickly enough. They haven't implemented this standard YET because everyone is so quick to bow to their unholy monopoly. So why does IE on Mac have perfect support for png alpha channel and gamma adjustment?

now that Patrick has helped me to clean up my front page, let me point everyone again at the image there (created by lewing).

it is a transparent png. in my experience, transparent png's are viewable in Netscape4 and more modern Netscapes, IE, and Mozilla. you just have to be careful when saving it.

this image is RGB, with the alpha channel (obviously). the trick with the stupid browsers is to give them a background color to use. this is accomplished in gimp by having your color choice set as the background color in the gimptool box. and the background color option in the png save dialog toggled when saving.

that is as much as i will worry about browsers that cannot handle the free file format. so, if i ever use a multicolored background to a web page, i will give the poor clueless blokes a nice solid color and not use gif.

unless i want an animation that works ....

i saved lewings image with #cccccc as the background color. i still saw some edges on some IE's.

the css sucks on netscape4 -- i don't want to talk about that though.

good luck with these issues! carol

Philippe Rousselot
2002-12-23 20:08:47 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

At 12:40 23/12/02 -0500, you wrote:

On 2002-12-23 many people:

Talked about png images and web browser compatibility

please try this on your browsers

the first image is a png and is visible with IE 6.0.2800 at least including the alpha transparency. I do not know about the other versions. but it is not visible with mozzila 1.0.1

the second is visible on both but the alpha transparency works only with mozzila of course

Is there a way to tell the browser, if it is IE do that if it is mozzila do this, if it is other do another thing. if possible in css and not javascript ?

Happy holiday

Philippe

Philippe Rousselot
2002-12-23 20:37:04 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

sorry

I forgot it would be sent as html page

go to

www.utpala.net/test.html

Philippe

At 20:08 23/12/02 +0100, you wrote:

At 12:40 23/12/02 -0500, you wrote:

On 2002-12-23 many people:

Talked about png images and web browser compatibility

please try this on your browsers
the first image is a png and is visible with IE 6.0.2800 at least including the alpha transparency. I do not know about the other versions. but it is not visible with mozzila 1.0.1

the second is visible on both but the alpha transparency works only with mozzila of course

Is there a way to tell the browser, if it is IE do that if it is mozzila do this, if it is other do another thing. if possible in css and not javascript ?

Happy holiday

Philippe

Nigel Ridley
2002-12-23 21:01:39 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:37:04 +0100 Philippe Rousselot wrote:

sorry

I forgot it would be sent as html page

go to

www.utpala.net/test.html

Philippe

PL O'Smith
2002-12-23 21:10:39 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

On Monday 23 December 2002 02:37 pm, Philippe Rousselot wrote:

sorry

I forgot it would be sent as html page

go to

www.utpala.net/test.html

Philippe

=======================
Konqueror, Konqueror with Mozilla bindings and Mozilla 1.2 all view the page the same for me. Everything looks to be there and everything visible.

Patrick

--- KMail v1.4.3 --- SuSE Linux Pro v8.1 --- Registered Linux User #225206

Philippe Rousselot
2002-12-23 23:12:31 UTC (over 21 years ago)

Gif support

but something is really a pain if you add a doctype for html 4.01 it does not work anymore, only the one for 3.2 works

and then of course as ID and STYLE for DIV did not exist in version 3.2 the page is not anymore W3C compliant

Philippe

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2 Final//EN">

At 15:10 23/12/02 -0500, you wrote:

On Monday 23 December 2002 02:37 pm, Philippe Rousselot wrote:

sorry

I forgot it would be sent as html page

go to

www.utpala.net/test.html

Philippe

=======================
Konqueror, Konqueror with Mozilla bindings and Mozilla 1.2 all view the page the same for me. Everything looks to be there and everything visible.

Patrick

--- KMail v1.4.3 --- SuSE Linux Pro v8.1 --- Registered Linux User #225206