On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 rkaa@netcom.no wrote:

I tried to build 2.1.4 and kind of succeeded, but it couldn't open files. I could barely start it, actually. THere was dozens of error messages during startup from the local dir about "libgimpwidgets-2.0-104" couldn't be located.

You do not give many clues!

You are aware that 2.1.4 is a development version, and the README has words to the effect "All hell may break loose when installing this program"?

Did you build it in a different prefix to your Gimp-2.0.4. If you didn't, then for sure all hell will break loose.

Owen

Hi,

rkaa@netcom.no writes:

I tried to build 2.1.4 and kind of succeeded, but it couldn't open files. I could barely start it, actually. THere was dozens of error messages during startup from the local dir about "libgimpwidgets-2.0-104" couldn't be located. And even with a full install that's right: It's not on disk. Nor did the installation routine relink "gimp" to the new binary. I finally gave up and deleted the whole thing - it could only open xfc files, no "plugins" worked.

Your problem would be easily fixed and we would have been happy to tell you how. But since you decided to write a rant instead of asking for help I can only ask you not to use a development version.

Sven

Hi,

Owen Cook writes:

Did you build it in a different prefix to your Gimp-2.0.4. If you didn't, then for sure all hell will break loose.

It isn't really that bad. Actually nothing bad will happen besides that you won't any longer be able to compile plug-ins for GIMP 2.0 because the 2.1 installation overwrites a few files from GIMP 2.0. Plug-in compilation will pick up the GIMP 2.1 headers and libraries then.

The warning in the README exagerates a bit since it is in general a good idea to install into a different prefix since we don't want to be responsible if the 2.1 installation breaks GIMP 2.0.

Sven

Hi,

rkaa@netcom.no writes:

My main worry is that someone out there has introduced a filepicker I can't use. See mail subject. My workflow is seriously hampered by it. It shows no folder icons. I can't type filenames in it. The two applications I use the most; Mozilla (Gtk2) and Gimp, are now using a filepicker I can't use. THAT is a major problem. Probably to more than me.

That could have been fixed as easily if only you would have asked nicely.

Sven

Hi,

This is mostly a binch of tips (and a disclaimer - I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so these may be duplicates)...

rkaa@netcom.no wrote:

I tried to build 2.1.4 and kind of succeeded, but it couldn't open files. I could barely start it, actually. THere was dozens of error messages during startup from the local dir about "libgimpwidgets-2.0-104" couldn't be located.

You may have tried to install the GIMP 2.1 into the same directory as the old GIMP, and this does not work. It's documented in the "README" file, which you read, of course. ;)

I don't know how those errors manifest themselves, and I would have expected something more subtle than this, but however...

And even with a full install that's right: It's not on disk. Nor did the installation routine relink "gimp" to the new binary.

This is normal - since 2.1.x is a development series, we assume that you will be doing day-to-day work with 2.0.x, and we leave the gimp linking to gimp-2.0.

I finally gave up and
deleted the whole thing - it could only open xfc files, no "plugins" worked, and the filepicker has become an unusable mess... What on earth happened to the it? I can't use it anymore :(((

For the files, this is because xcf is loaded and saved in the core, while every other format goes through a plug-in. Since libgimp is not found, the plug-ins don't load, and are thus not available.

You can use the old 2.0 plug-ins by doing something like "ln -s /usr/lib/gimp/2.0/plug-ins ~/.gimp-2.1/plug-ins ", but then you will not have all the bug-fixes and previews which have gone into the 2.1 series.

There is nowhere to paste in the URLs (filepath/name).

Ctrl-F (Find) brings up a filename entry dialog box where you can paste URLs or file paths.

I used to browse my
galleries in mozilla, and then paste the url/filepath+name into the gimp filepicker.

If this is your preferred way to browse files, then you might consider dragging and dropping the URLs from the Location bar into the toolbox of the GIMP. This even works for remote images in web-pages, and drag & drop also works with multiple files, you can drop files to the layers dock to have them added as layers to your image, and D&D also works for lots of other things (colours, patterns, layer previews, etc).

I tested it under Gnome too: There I can see icons at least. But I can't use Gnome for other reasons. I guess it all means that the Gimp has changed from a Gtk app to a Gnome app.

No, this isn't the case. Perhaps you are missing the icon themes, which are an optional but reccommended component for the GIMP?

Regards, Dave.

Hi,

Changing an inaccuracy...

David Neary wrote:

Ctrl-F (Find) brings up a filename entry dialog box where you can paste URLs or file paths.

This is actually Ctrl-L (Location). Sorry :)

Cheers, Dave.

Hi,

David Neary writes:

You may have tried to install the GIMP 2.1 into the same directory as the old GIMP, and this does not work. It's documented in the "README" file, which you read, of course. ;)

I don't know how those errors manifest themselves, and I would have expected something more subtle than this, but however...

See my other response in this thread. The error that the original poster was seeing when starting up GIMP is completely unrelated to the installation prefix he has choosen. He simply forgot to run ldconfig.

You can use the old 2.0 plug-ins by doing something like "ln -s /usr/lib/gimp/2.0/plug-ins ~/.gimp-2.1/plug-ins ", but then you will not have all the bug-fixes and previews which have gone into the 2.1 series.

This won't work with 2.1.4 though since we accidentally broke the wire protocol. It will work again with 2.1.5 (or current CVS).

No, this isn't the case. Perhaps you are missing the icon themes, which are an optional but reccommended component for the GIMP?

He is missing at least one of the following:

- an icon theme that provides the icons - the shared-mime-info package
- an entry in ~/.gtkrc-2.0 that tells gtk+ to use the icon theme (for example: gtk-icon-theme-name = "gnome")

Alternatively upgrading to a recent GTK+-2.4 release would have fixed the problem.

You should perhaps have mentioned that there's also "Open Location" in the toolbox which offers an entry to paste URLs or filenames to.

Sven

Hi,

Sven Neumann wrote:

See my other response in this thread. The error that the original poster was seeing when starting up GIMP is completely unrelated to the installation prefix he has choosen. He simply forgot to run ldconfig.

Ah - I was under the impression that libtool took care of that at install time nowadays.

You should perhaps have mentioned that there's also "Open Location" in the toolbox which offers an entry to paste URLs or filenames to.

Ah - I would have if I'd thought of it :)

Cheers, Dave.

Hi,

David Neary writes:

You should perhaps have mentioned that there's also "Open Location" in the toolbox which offers an entry to paste URLs or filenames to.

Ah - I would have if I'd thought of it :)

While we are on it. The HIG suggests to use Ctrl-L as the default keybinding for "File->Open Location". I would like to follow this suggestion but we already use Ctrl-L to bring up the Layers dialog. Since that's a longstanding keybinding I am somewhat reluctant to changing it. On the other hand it would be good to follow the HIG advice here in order to be more consistent with other apps and also in order to get people used to the otherwise hidden Ctrl-L feature in the File Open dialog.

So what do our users think about this? What would be a good alternative keybinding for the Layers dialog? Does it need one at all?

Sven

On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 03:51:07PM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

While we are on it. The HIG suggests to use Ctrl-L as the default keybinding for "File->Open Location". I would like to follow this suggestion but we already use Ctrl-L to bring up the Layers dialog. Since that's a longstanding keybinding I am somewhat reluctant to changing it. On the other hand it would be good to follow the HIG advice here in order to be more consistent with other apps and also in order to get people used to the otherwise hidden Ctrl-L feature in the File Open dialog.

So what do our users think about this? What would be a good alternative keybinding for the Layers dialog? Does it need one at all?

okay, an opinion from the other direction.

i dont use key-bindings.

ctl-l for location is not intuitive, ctl-l for layer is.

all of a sudden, now i need to use key-bindings. i really did have it in my list of good things to do to learn keybindings. however, when i do learn these things, i would like to learn the key-bindings that all the people who were *doing* graphics determined were good and useful.

i find it interesting all of the people who now have problems with it. people who actually use the application to make computer graphics, i am willing to bet. not people who open apps and try to figure out "what it does". as soon as you had a need for gimp-1.0 or an idea, the gui was no problem. this is not the case anymore. now you have a need or an idea and the gui is a problem.

i say that when i learn keybindings, i would like to use ctl-l for layer, since this is what the gimp is truly very good at.

knowing where your files are located is something that users should know. the people who prefer this gui probably have no idea where their files were stored by the app they last used that was like this.

carol

Hi,

Carol Spears writes:

okay, an opinion from the other direction.

Thanks but we are not interested in your rants.

Carol, I am waiting for you to apologize. Could you please make a choice and either apologize or leave this mailing-list.

Sven

Sven Neumann (sven@gimp.org) wrote:

While we are on it. The HIG suggests to use Ctrl-L as the default keybinding for "File->Open Location". I would like to follow this suggestion but we already use Ctrl-L to bring up the Layers dialog. Since that's a longstanding keybinding I am somewhat reluctant to changing it. On the other hand it would be good to follow the HIG advice here in order to be more consistent with other apps and also in order to get people used to the otherwise hidden Ctrl-L feature in the File Open dialog.

I frequently use CTRL-L to bring the layers tab to the front, it is a handy shortcut.

Compared to this I rarely use "Open Location" and for me assigning CTRL-L to it would IMHO be a pity. I guess that "Open..." is by far more frequently used and CTRL-O for this is well established.

My vote goes for keeping CTRL-L for the layers dialog, especially when considering the about 1000 hits for "ctrl l layers dialog gimp" on google.

Bye,
Simon

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 12:08:41PM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

Carol Spears writes:

Thanks but we are not interested in your rants.

define "we"

Carol, I am waiting for you to apologize. Could you please make a choice and either apologize or leave this mailing-list.

in the year you have been contributing to this list, your answers have been mostly good and factual. however, you still do not yet grasp the meaning of a user list. i am certain that this understanding is not beyond your grasp.

if think i am sorry for being honest about how the corporate sponsored developers treated the non-corporate sponsored volunteers, you need to go away.

if you want me to be sorry you joined this list, i cannot do that either.

an apology for not always stripping the emails i respond to might be in order. i dont have time for this sort of game.

sorry that your company that paid you to work on gimp folded? i am. however, it is not the sort of sorry i think you want since i am not responsible for that.

sorry you are such an ass?

every day ....

carol

On Monday 20 September 2004 09:49, Carol Spears wrote:

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 12:08:41PM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

Carol Spears writes:

Thanks but we are not interested in your rants.

define "we"

Carol, I am waiting for you to apologize. Could you please make a choice and either apologize or leave this mailing-list.

in the year you have been contributing to this list, your answers have been mostly good and factual. however, you still do not yet grasp the meaning of a user list. i am certain that this understanding is not beyond your grasp.

if think i am sorry for being honest about how the corporate sponsored developers treated the non-corporate sponsored volunteers, you need to go away.

if you want me to be sorry you joined this list, i cannot do that either.

an apology for not always stripping the emails i respond to might be in order. i dont have time for this sort of game.

sorry that your company that paid you to work on gimp folded? i am. however, it is not the sort of sorry i think you want since i am not responsible for that.

sorry you are such an ass?

Actually Carol,
the apologies Sven and some more of us are expecting is because you called him a liar the other day. It was rather rough of you part, besides being untrue. Your statement above above does not make it any better, by the way.

I am not asking you to leave the list or anything, but this is a situation I do dislike. Sven wrote an e-mail in more friendly terms the other day - which you did not answer.

So if you would refrain from insulting Sven and any other developers the list would be a much nicer place.

JS ->

every day ....

carol

Hi,

Simon Budig writes:

I frequently use CTRL-L to bring the layers tab to the front, it is a handy shortcut.

Of course it is a very useful shortcut and I use it a lot myself. However if we want to try to coexist peacefully with other applications, it would make sense to respect the fact that Ctrl-L is a standard keybinding that should be bound to "Open Location" in all applications. The question is thus if we can find a different keybinding for the Layers dialog.

Sven

On 20 Sep 2004 16:07:40 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

Simon Budig writes:

I frequently use CTRL-L to bring the layers tab to the front, it is a handy shortcut.

Of course it is a very useful shortcut and I use it a lot myself. However if we want to try to coexist peacefully with other applications, it would make sense to respect the fact that Ctrl-L is a standard keybinding that should be bound to "Open Location" in all applications. The question is thus if we can find a different keybinding for the Layers dialog.

If ctrl-l would open location instead of the layers, the first thing I would try would be ctrl-L (shift-l) for the layers.

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 10:27:05AM -0300, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris wrote:

Actually Carol,
the apologies Sven and some more of us are expecting is because you called him a liar the other day. It was rather rough of you part, besides being untrue. Your statement above above does not make it any better, by the way.

well, for one thing, that was a different list.

another thing, the history of gimp is very cool. what i would rather research is to find out if the Merge Visible plug-in was written for the tutorial i love so much on classic.gimp.org and not to prove one of the lead developers wrong.

on that other list, i really did know what the other perl plug-in writers were doing more than the developer who wrote the initial interface. he is a purist and wrote plug-ins that somehow did not show the camel on the face of the dialog like some of the others.

users should not allow developers to rewrite history according to their wishes. and it is just as wrong to expect that the developers know everything that the volunteers are doing.

the fact that Sven did not use perl or have a clue about the plug-ins is not a bad fact. just a fact.

the fact that marc lehmann did not try other developers perl plug-ins is another one of those not good not bad facts.

I am not asking you to leave the list or anything, but this is a situation I do dislike. Sven wrote an e-mail in more friendly terms the other day - which you did not answer.

So if you would refrain from insulting Sven and any other developers the list would be a much nicer place.

the friend i made in Sven is more concerned with properly formated emails. calling him a liar on his birthday was sort of a birthday gift. i did this on another list because this list would have been the wrong place for that.

i should apologize for following the development of gimp as closely as i have? i dont think so.

actually, we should both apologize for not taking the time to research things. the fact that i was online and explaining to someone quite recently (gimp-1.3) the reason that Copy Visible was not in the menus because it was a perl plug-in and at that time gimp-perl was waiting for gtk-perl bindings is nothing for me to apologize for. i think it was nice that i was available to help someone with it.

this list is where users get to have confidence in what they have learned and know and to learn more.

to agree with Sven would be to discredit the stuff that Adrian and JTL did when they made the original web site for gimp-1.0. i am NOT going to do that, and no one who has been around since then would ask me.

unless they were having some fun. on another list, where that kind of fun is -- well, fun.

thanks for your ideas, carol

Hi,

oh well, I was under the impression that we could use some well-established forms of communication here. One such thing is that if someone feels insulted, he/she can ask for an apology, accept the apology and the issue is settled. Obviously Carol refuses to do that and I am pissed off about her behaviour. But I am not going to talk about this here any longer. Instead I will simply ignore Carols ignorance. I would however like to correct some of the wrong facts that she's been spreading (again) in her last mail.

Carol Spears writes:

another thing, the history of gimp is very cool. what i would rather research is to find out if the Merge Visible plug-in was written for the tutorial i love so much on classic.gimp.org and not to prove one of the lead developers wrong.

Merge Visible is not a plug-in, it is a core feature.

the fact that Sven did not use perl or have a clue about the plug-ins is not a bad fact. just a fact.

I have used gimp-perl, of course. I don't use it a lot and I only once wrote a script in gimp-perl. So I wouldn't call myself experienced with gimp-perl. Claiming that I would have never used it, is however simply wrong. But Carol will certainly call me a liar for saying this.

actually, we should both apologize for not taking the time to research things. the fact that i was online and explaining to someone quite recently (gimp-1.3) the reason that Copy Visible was not in the menus because it was a perl plug-in and at that time gimp-perl was waiting for gtk-perl bindings is nothing for me to apologize for. i think it was nice that i was available to help someone with it.

As I explained earlier, Copy Visible is a Script-Fu script.

Sven

Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

Simon Budig writes:

I frequently use CTRL-L to bring the layers tab to the front, it is a handy shortcut.

Of course it is a very useful shortcut and I use it a lot myself. However if we want to try to coexist peacefully with other applications, it would make sense to respect the fact that Ctrl-L is a standard keybinding that should be bound to "Open Location" in all applications. The question is thus if we can find a different keybinding for the Layers dialog.

Well, rarely use keybindings. That being said, I can see the need to 'coexist,' but I really have a hard time understanding 'Open Location.' It sounds like I'm trying to open a web page. Personally, I open files. So, what other packages use this binding?

Hi,

Geoffrey writes:

Well, rarely use keybindings. That being said, I can see the need to 'coexist,' but I really have a hard time understanding 'Open Location.' It sounds like I'm trying to open a web page. Personally, I open files.

It is exactly for that purpose, to open a remote URL. It allows you to enter for example "http://gimp.org/images/wilber_the_gimp2.png" and have GIMP (or rather the wget plug-in) download the image for you.

Sven

Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

Geoffrey writes:

Well, rarely use keybindings. That being said, I can see the need to 'coexist,' but I really have a hard time understanding 'Open Location.' It sounds like I'm trying to open a web page. Personally, I open files.

It is exactly for that purpose, to open a remote URL. It allows you to enter for example "http://gimp.org/images/wilber_the_gimp2.png" and have GIMP (or rather the wget plug-in) download the image for you.

Well, don't I feel stupid. :) Thanks for turning the light on in my darkness..

IMHO, the world is not a single suit of applications. Doesn't matter what HIG or HIK will say. if I hit twice on my terminal I am asked "Display all 3277 possibilities? (y or n)" -- that is, over 3000 applications. Of course no keybind will behave consistently among all of them. Even if only about 1/4 of them are intended for interactive use.

I pressed "CTRL + L" around my desktop - on the already open apps - just to see what happened, if any "open location" window would pop up. Just for fun, of course. Ok, it downloads e-mails, and clears the terminal screen, (and, yes, opens the Layers Dialog). But no "open location".

On the other hand, ctrl + L to open the layers dialog is extensively documented, as Simon puts it. I f the GIMP would be a Gnome-core application, I'd say it would be worth the effort.

Actually, if it is for "ease of use" at all, in a parallell popular suite of Free Software Applications, openning a "location", doesn't have a different interface of openning a file. One just writes the desired URI were he can also type the filename. Now...if someone will ask me what I find easier: having an "open " menu entry were I can click on folders and files, or type a filename or URL, _or_ having two "open" options on the menus, one were I cannot write a filename, but if I press a key combination which what happens to be the shortcut for the other "open" option I would not think much to answer this one.

JS
->

Hi,

"Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris" writes:

I pressed "CTRL + L" around my desktop - on the already open apps - just to see what happened, if any "open location" window would pop up. Just for fun, of course. Ok, it downloads e-mails, and clears the terminal screen, (and, yes, opens the Layers Dialog). But no "open location".

I am already sortof convinced that we shouldn't change (and I have been from the very beginning but wanted to get some feedback). You should however note that GIMP has always been ahead of other apps and it is supposed to set standards. So we shouldn't care too much about what other apps on your desktop are doing but rather try to look at what GIMP and the other apps on your desktop will be doing in the near future.

Sven

Hi,

Quoting "Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris" :

IMHO, the world is not a single suit of applications. Doesn't matter what HIG or HIK will say.

On the other hand, ctrl + L to open the layers dialog is extensively documented, as Simon puts it. If the GIMP would be a Gnome-core application, I'd say it would be worth the effort.

Let's not make this into a GNOME vs GIMP thing. The HIG is a set of Human Interface *Guidelines* which list a set of usability principles and some of their implications. No-one is saying it is a bible. As nomis pointed out, it is not clear that the HIG applies in this case at all.

We have a great relationship with GNOME, they give us stuff (infrastucture, mainly) and ask for nothing in return. They handle our money, and ask below the going rate for administration of it. And last, but not least, we share a bunch of history, libraries and philosophy. While the GIMP isn't part of the GNOME Desktop Platform, in many ways we're a good citizen in GNOME World.

Actually, if it is for "ease of use" at all, in a parallell popular suite of Free Software Applications, openning a "location", doesn't have a different interface of openning a file.

That's exactly the case with the file chooser. In fact, with gnome-vfs behind it, you get lots more for free too - ftp, sftp, smb and nfs shares are transparently available.

Now...if someone will
ask me what I find easier: having an "open " menu entry were I can click on folders and files, or type a filename or URL, _or_ having two "open" options on the menus, one were I cannot write a filename, but if I press a key combination which what happens to be the shortcut for the other "open" option I would not think much to answer this one.

This is another conversation :) As they say in the House of Commons, I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago.

Cheers, Dave.

--
Dave Neary
Lyon, France

Apologies for the late reply, I hope these comments are still relevant.

The gimp already makes some alterations to the the File Chooser, how about altering it further to include a Location text entry box by default again and avoid the issue of the clashing Ctrl+L keybinding entirely?

I believe Inkscape has already do so.

It also is a remote possibility (but a possiblity nonetheless) that the default might be changed to include a Location text entry again, if the gimp developers were to add their opinion it might be more likely to happen.
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=136541

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ Inkscape, Draw Freely http://inkscape.org Free SVG Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Hi,

Alan Horkan writes:

The gimp already makes some alterations to the the File Chooser, how about altering it further to include a Location text entry box by default again and avoid the issue of the clashing Ctrl+L keybinding entirely?

No.

I believe Inkscape has already do so.

Yes, I saw that terrible hack. No thanks.

It also is a remote possibility (but a possiblity nonetheless) that the default might be changed to include a Location text entry again, if the gimp developers were to add their opinion it might be more likely to happen.
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=136541

Yes, please. Go and add your opinion there.

Sven

On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 15:51 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

David Neary writes:

You should perhaps have mentioned that there's also "Open Location" in the toolbox which offers an entry to paste URLs or filenames to.

Ah - I would have if I'd thought of it :)

While we are on it. The HIG suggests to use Ctrl-L as the default keybinding for "File->Open Location". I would like to follow this suggestion but we already use Ctrl-L to bring up the Layers dialog. Since that's a longstanding keybinding I am somewhat reluctant to changing it. On the other hand it would be good to follow the HIG advice here in order to be more consistent with other apps and also in order to get people used to the otherwise hidden Ctrl-L feature in the File Open dialog.

So what do our users think about this? What would be a good alternative keybinding for the Layers dialog? Does it need one at all?

I favour Ctrl+L for open location. I don't have the layer dock obscured most of the time and use it extensively to be hiding it, therefore wasn't using the shortcut for focusing layer's dock at all. On the other hand the Ctrl+L shortcut is fairly rock solid in my brain because of the web browsers I've used in the past.

Ctrl+L is an adept to being a common shortcut such as Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V, its role in the new file dialogs is also fairly high.

my 2 cents

On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 05:49 -0700, Carol Spears wrote:

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 12:08:41PM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

Carol Spears writes:

Thanks but we are not interested in your rants.

define "we"

Carol, you're getting ridiculous even on your standards. Count me in the "we" group.

cheers

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 04:14:34 -0700 Jakub Steiner wrote the words:

On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 05:49 -0700, Carol Spears wrote:

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 12:08:41PM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

Carol Spears writes:

Thanks but we are not interested in your rants.

define "we"

Carol, you're getting ridiculous even on your standards. Count me in the"we" group.

cheers

On Fri, Sep 24, 2004 at 03:50:00PM -0600, Adrian wrote:

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 04:14:34 -0700 Jakub Steiner wrote the words:

On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 05:49 -0700, Carol Spears wrote:

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 12:08:41PM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

Carol Spears writes:

Thanks but we are not interested in your rants.

define "we"

Carol, you're getting ridiculous even on your standards. Count me in the"we" group.

cheers