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[OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window)

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[OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window) Yemu 18 Sep 03:15
  [OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window) Sven Neumann 18 Sep 04:20
16715.50917.38463.59821@gur... 07 Oct 20:16
  [OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window) Sven Neumann 18 Sep 13:42
16716.61925.844731.116848@g... 07 Oct 20:16
  [OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window) Sven Neumann 19 Sep 13:03
Yemu
2004-09-18 03:15:52 UTC (over 19 years ago)

[OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window)

Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] [OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window) Date: sobota 18 wrze?nia 2004 03:05
From: Cezary Biele
To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu

Dnia pi?tek 17 wrze?nia 2004 22:01, GSR - FR napisa?:

yemu@gazeta.pl (2004-09-17 at 2307.46 +0200):

information. my question is: is it possible to have gimp in one window? like in other graphic programs - not to mention photoshop or photo-paint. i found

Now that you raise the issue, I wonder what is going in in the following image http://www.deviantart.com/view/8257589/. New method? Optional setting? It reminds me of the same app in MacOS (where I always found it as a bunch of windows), but it is the first time I see that in MSWindows version.

that look interesting, i haven't seen anything like that in windows. having seen this, and having thought about this issuefor a while :-), i came to the conclusion, that seperate windows are not a problem as far as: (let me compare here gimp and inkscape)

- toolbar windows are always on top (inkscape yes , gimp no) - toolbar windows are not present on the taskbar, only opened files (same as above)
- toolbar window "pass" keyboard shorcuts to the file being edited (same)

i'd like to say that i use kde, and maybe kwin is the cause of gimp weird window management.

i use both inkscape and gimp on a daily basis and inkscape behaviour is in my opinion more intuitive. i've been watching inkscape development and changes in window behaviour were made pretty quickly (sodipodi from which inskape had forked had the same behaviour as gimp). is there any chance to change window behaviour in gimp?

btw. does anyone has any experience concerning window behaviour in for example Photoshop on Mac?

best regards yemu

Sven Neumann
2004-09-18 04:20:57 UTC (over 19 years ago)

[OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window)

Hi,

Yemu writes:

seen this, and having thought about this issuefor a while :-), i came to the conclusion, that seperate windows are not a problem as far as: (let me compare here gimp and inkscape)

- toolbar windows are always on top (inkscape yes , gimp no)

Not all people agree with this preference. We got quite a lot of bug reports when we tried that in the 1.3 series. That's why there's a gimprc option to set the relevent hints on the toolbox and dock windows. The inkscape way of doing it (making all windows transient to the focused window) is in my opinion a terrible hack. It is simply not what the people who wrote the spec had in mind. The "utility window" hint seems to be a lot closer to what we would like to have. Unfortunately the spec is vague about how window managers are supposed to interpret this hint. Otherwise the KDE developers would probably have adapted the interpretation of the metacity developers that utility windows should be kept above other windows of the same application. Perhaps the best thing we can do here is to get the EWMH spec changed to include a window hint that matches the GIMP's needs.

- toolbar windows are not present on the taskbar, only opened files (same as above)

We could easily do that using gtk_window_set_skip_taskbar_hint() but I fail to see how that would be useful. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

- toolbar window "pass" keyboard shorcuts to the file being edited (same)

This is already implemented in the development version. Why is this same?

Sven

Sven Neumann
2004-09-18 13:42:30 UTC (over 19 years ago)

[OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window)

Hi,

Mike Meyer writes:

Neither window managers nor applications have any FSCKING business screwing with window depth. If some such change gets made to the GIMP, I certainly hope it's optional.

I think you misunderstood what we are talking about here. Of course it is the job of the window manager to deal with the z-order of windows. After all it is a window manager. So if an application gives the window manager the hint that a certain window should be treated special (for example kept above another window or even above all windows of the same application), then the window manager should respect that hint. Of course the user can still configure his/her window manager to ignore those hints or he/she could install a window manager that ignores those hints by default. But it is certainly the window managers business.

Some people seem to argue though that the application should try to force a certain behaviour on the window manager. That is definitely not a good idea. The application should give the window manager enough information to do a good job but it should let the window manager manage the windows.

BTW, the changes that you refer to have all been made already. Due to the fact that the interpretation of the spec varies between window managers, we have added some preference options to control what hints are set. I would prefer though if the EWMH spec would have a window type that would fit for the GIMP toolbox and dock windows. At the moment there's UTILITY which comes closest. But have a look yourself:

http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/wm-spec/wm-spec-1.2.html#id2503768

It may make sense to make the dock windows transient for the toolbox. Would probably be worth a try.

Sven

Sven Neumann
2004-09-19 13:03:43 UTC (over 19 years ago)

[OT] Some other app (was: gimp in one window)

Hi,

Mike Meyer writes:

This only works for sufficiently configurable window managers. Not all windows managers are sufficiently configurable. Which is why applications should be configurable to disable such hinting.

That is a redundant statement since, as we all know, the hints are optional. I wonder what point you are trying to make.

At the moment the hints are not even enabled by default but I would actually like to reconsider the defaults for 2.2. It would be nice to get some feedback whether people are using the (toolbox-window-hint utility) and/or (dock-window-hint utility) preferences and how well they work or not work for them.

Sven