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Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

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Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 11 Aug 18:15
  Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Ken Warner 11 Aug 18:19
   Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 11 Aug 19:45
    Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Ken Warner 11 Aug 20:53
  Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Andreas Lemke 11 Aug 18:32
  Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 11 Aug 18:48
  Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Andreas Lemke 11 Aug 19:58
   Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 11 Aug 20:51
    Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Michael Schumacher 11 Aug 20:59
     Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 11 Aug 21:19
      Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Gfxuser 11 Aug 21:40
       Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior kiwi_steve 12 Aug 04:03
        Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Christen Anderson 12 Aug 05:21
         Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior kiwi_steve 12 Aug 07:37
          Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Daniel Hauck 12 Aug 11:25
           Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Daniel Hauck 12 Aug 11:52
            Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 12 Aug 16:17
             Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 12 Aug 17:12
           Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 12 Aug 15:56
          Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Patrick Shanahan 12 Aug 11:38
          Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior isabel brison 12 Aug 15:25
           Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Christen Anderson 12 Aug 15:36
           Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Ken Warner 12 Aug 16:01
            Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 12 Aug 17:09
             Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Maarten De Munck 12 Aug 18:23
              Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior jfrazierjr@nc.rr.com 12 Aug 18:56
            Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 13 Aug 02:16
          Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 12 Aug 16:04
        Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 12 Aug 15:42
         Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Andrew Clarke 12 Aug 16:04
       Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 12 Aug 14:05
        Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Patrick Shanahan 12 Aug 14:43
         Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 12 Aug 15:06
Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 12 Aug 17:02
  Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 13 Aug 02:12
OFD6506DCE.EEF22893-ON86257... 13 Aug 16:27
  Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior bruno@buys.net.br 13 Aug 16:26
  Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 13 Aug 16:58
   Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 13 Aug 17:05
    Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 13 Aug 17:46
   Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 13 Aug 17:43
    Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 13 Aug 18:09
     Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 13 Aug 18:13
     Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Patrick Shanahan 13 Aug 18:20
      Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Ken Warner 13 Aug 18:35
       Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 13 Aug 19:00
        Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 13 Aug 19:09
         Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 13 Aug 19:44
         Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Ofnuts 13 Aug 19:45
          Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 13 Aug 19:54
          Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 13 Aug 21:29
           Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Ofnuts 14 Aug 11:01
            Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 14 Aug 13:13
             Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 14 Aug 13:33
            Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Ken Warner 14 Aug 15:07
             Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Burnie West 14 Aug 16:39
              Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Ken Warner 14 Aug 17:59
               Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 14 Aug 19:21
                Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Ken Warner 14 Aug 19:27
                Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior maderios 14 Aug 19:40
                 Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 14 Aug 19:58
                  Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 15 Aug 04:16
                 Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 15 Aug 04:14
               Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Archie Arevalo 15 Aug 04:04
          Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior Richard Gitschlag 14 Aug 16:58
maderios
2012-08-11 18:15:10 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

Hi
This message is addressed to developers. New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions "save" and "save as", indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg. To this end, I set two keyboard shortcuts with one finger: save=s and save as=u. So I can save lot of time. With version 2.8 , it's impossible . I'm professional. My job is to work on images and I can't lost my time. Sorry... So back to Gimp-2.6. I compiled it on Debian Testing/Wheezy (after downgrading gegl and babl) and it works well. This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8. At least give the user the choice.... Thanks for your work.
Best regards
Maderios

Ken Warner
2012-08-11 18:19:05 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

Clearly you can't be a professional as you say you are because GIMP 2.8 is targeted toward professionals. That according to people who have the responsibility of deciding who meant to use GIMP. :=)

On 8/11/2012 11:15 AM, maderios wrote:

Hi
This message is addressed to developers. New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions "save" and "save as", indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg. To this end, I set two keyboard shortcuts with one finger: save=s and save as=u. So I can save lot of time. With version 2.8 , it's impossible . I'm professional. My job is to work on images and I can't lost my time. Sorry... So back to Gimp-2.6. I compiled it on Debian Testing/Wheezy (after downgrading gegl and babl) and it works well. This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8. At least give the user the choice.... Thanks for your work.
Best regards
Maderios

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Andreas Lemke
2012-08-11 18:32:27 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

How about using the corresponding export commands or binding them to your preferred keys? It doesn't do xcf but this may be acceptable if you mostly export to an image format.

Andreas

Am 11.08.2012 20:15, schrieb maderios:

Hi
This message is addressed to developers. New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions "save" and "save as", indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg. To this end, I set two keyboard shortcuts with one finger: save=s and save as=u. So I can save lot of time. With version 2.8 , it's impossible . I'm professional. My job is to work on images and I can't lost my time. Sorry...
So back to Gimp-2.6. I compiled it on Debian Testing/Wheezy (after downgrading gegl and babl) and it works well. This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8. At least give the user the choice.... Thanks for your work.
Best regards
Maderios

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gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-11 18:48:10 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:15 PM, maderios wrote:

New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions "save" and "save as", indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg.

Should I take that literally, that would mean you are pressing those ever ten seconds or so. What kind of professional work does that involve?

This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8.

Sorry it stopped working for you.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-11 19:45:19 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Ken Warner wrote:

Clearly you can't be a professional as you say you are because GIMP 2.8 is targeted toward professionals. That according to people who have the responsibility of deciding who meant to use GIMP. :=)

We don't expect every single professional user to like it, we never did.

The new interaction is built around a certain workflow. One doesn't even have to be a professional to rely on it.

By the way, what does it take to make you less sour a more broad-minded and positive thinking? Would a mug of cocoa and a bun do the trick, perhaps?

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Andreas Lemke
2012-08-11 19:58:43 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

Maybe you can tell us more about what you are doing. I might suspect that it is a repetitive task that could be automated with a script. Let us know if you need help on that.

Andreas

Am 11.08.2012 20:15, schrieb maderios:

Hi
This message is addressed to developers. New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions "save" and "save as", indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg. To this end, I set two keyboard shortcuts with one finger: save=s and save as=u. So I can save lot of time. With version 2.8 , it's impossible . I'm professional. My job is to work on images and I can't lost my time. Sorry...
So back to Gimp-2.6. I compiled it on Debian Testing/Wheezy (after downgrading gegl and babl) and it works well. This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8. At least give the user the choice.... Thanks for your work.
Best regards
Maderios

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

maderios
2012-08-11 20:51:43 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/11/2012 09:58 PM, Andreas Lemke wrote:

Maybe you can tell us more about what you are doing. I might suspect that it is a repetitive task that could be automated with a script. Let us know if you need help on that.

Andreas

Hi
No repetitive task (happily !). I create images. It's just art... Ex, I need to edit and save many versions of the same image. I use different format, png, xcf, jpeg. That's why Gimp has become so complicated for me to use, compared to 2.6....
M

Am 11.08.2012 20:15, schrieb maderios:

Hi
This message is addressed to developers. New Gimp-2.8 would be a good tool but it is unusable for me. Example: I use, hundreds of times per hour, the functions "save" and "save as", indifferently on .png. xcf or .jpeg. To this end, I set two keyboard shortcuts with one finger: save=s and save as=u. So I can save lot of time. With version 2.8 , it's impossible . I'm professional. My job is to work on images and I can't lost my time. Sorry...
So back to Gimp-2.6. I compiled it on Debian Testing/Wheezy (after downgrading gegl and babl) and it works well. This is very annoying. It would be nice to recover ergonomics and traditional functions "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8. At least give the user the choice.... Thanks for your work.
Best regards
Maderios

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Ken Warner
2012-08-11 20:53:30 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

My apologies. Close minded dogmatism infuriates me. It's a bad habit but a difficult one to break.

On 8/11/2012 12:45 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

By the way, what does it take to make you less sour a more broad-minded and positive thinking? Would a mug of cocoa and a bun do the trick, perhaps?

Michael Schumacher
2012-08-11 20:59:07 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 11.08.2012 22:51, maderios wrote:

Hi
No repetitive task (happily !). I create images. It's just art... Ex, I need to edit and save many versions of the same image. I use different format, png, xcf, jpeg. That's why Gimp has become so complicated for me to use, compared to 2.6....

But that would seem to be something the current systems is good for:

- export any intermediate state to a different file and format - save in xcf to continue working on the image at a later time

Regards, Michael

maderios
2012-08-11 21:19:43 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/11/2012 10:59 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 11.08.2012 22:51, maderios wrote:

Hi
No repetitive task (happily !). I create images. It's just art... Ex, I need to edit and save many versions of the same image. I use different format, png, xcf, jpeg. That's why Gimp has become so complicated for me to use, compared to 2.6....

But that would seem to be something the current systems is good for:

- export any intermediate state to a different file and format - save in xcf to continue working on the image at a later time

This does not happen exactly like your description. I posted this message on Debian list:

Save= save the same file (same name) after modifying this file Ex1: I open house.png, I change contrast, luminosity then I save it I use only one key to do it: "s"
It takes 1/5 second

Save as= save this file with another name, another extension Ex2: I open house.png, I change contrast, luminosity, I delete some details I don't like with rubber then save it under another name like house-2 because it's a different version. I use only one key to save it under "house-2.png": "u" Ex3: I open house.png. I need .xcf version of this file to build a new image with layers, etc.
I use only one key to save it under "house.xcf": "u"

Very quick and simple....

For me, "export" word is useless and confusing. Export to what? To jpeg, png, xcf, tiff ? It depends on the file where you start. You could start with a jpeg and want to export to .xcf, or the contrary.... "Save as" function is clear: only one key to use and you change only the extension or file name. It's the gimp-2.6 behavior. Regards
M

Gfxuser
2012-08-11 21:40:23 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 11.08.12 at 23:19 maderios wrote:

For me, "export" word is useless and confusing. Export to what? To jpeg, png, xcf, tiff ? It depends on the file where you start. You could start with a jpeg and want to export to .xcf, or the contrary....

Hi Maderios,

the 'save and export' behaviour as been discussed at the mailing lists during the last months very widely and thoroughly. There's also an article about it at
http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/gimp-2.8-understanding-ui-changes. Please be so kind and check them first. Judging from the amount of postings to only this one topic I guess all your questions and concerns are answered there.

Best regards,

grafxuser

2012-08-12 04:03:43 UTC (over 2 years ago)
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Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

And judging from the number of people (myself included) who are still annoyed about it and asking for it to be put back the way it was, the questions and concerns are NOT being answered - unless you call telling people to just get used to it because thats how it is now a solution.

The Gimp development team needs to listen, and listen carefully. This is a major change, and many people don't like it (yes, I know many do as well... but you've split the community, and thats the point I'm making). I have respect for open-source developers, but I also wonder how hard-nosed the developers would be if this was a paid application and a bunch of their paying customers started complaining about a divisive change. I hope they're not thinking that because they're not getting paid they can trample over half their user-base with impunity.

I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was, or at the very least have a "legacy save" option users can activate in the options so people like the original poster, myself and all the others who use Gimp regularly and hate this new save work-un-flow option can be happy again.

My not-so-humble 2.5c (tax inclusive)

Steve

the 'save and export' behaviour as been discussed at the mailing lists during the last months very widely and thoroughly. There's also an article about it at
http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/gimp-2.8-understanding-ui-changes. Please be so kind and check them first. Judging from the amount of postings to only this one topic I guess all your questions and concerns are answered there.

Christen Anderson
2012-08-12 05:21:44 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

Steve,

I've tried to stay out of the save/export discussion so far, for the most part. But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are taking about this is totally unjustified. I didn't like the new behavior at first, but I have gotten used to it... as can every other user. If you can't adapt, change the software. This is, after all, one of the benefits of FOSS - you are free to modify the code to fit your own needs.

On 8/11/2012 10:03 PM, kiwi_steve wrote:

And judging from the number of people (myself included) who are still annoyed about it and asking for it to be put back the way it was, the questions and concerns are NOT being answered - unless you call telling people to just get used to it because thats how it is now a solution.

The Gimp development team needs to listen, and listen carefully. This is a major change, and many people don't like it (yes, I know many do as well... but you've split the community, and thats the point I'm making). I have respect for open-source developers, but I also wonder how hard-nosed the developers would be if this was a paid application and a bunch of their paying customers started complaining about a divisive change. I hope they're not thinking that because they're not getting paid they can trample over half their user-base with impunity.

*half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration..... and I think that they deserve a little (read "a lot") of respect simply for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image editing software out there without being paid for it!

I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was, or at the very least have a "legacy save" option users can activate in the options so people like the original poster, myself and all the others who use Gimp regularly and hate this new save work-un-flow option can be happy again.

If you would read previous posts, you would know why this is not going to happen. As I stated earlier, if you really want it changed that badly, please feel free to modify the GIMP code.

My not-so-humble 2.5c (tax inclusive)

Steve

Sorry if this email sounded harsh in any way. I'm not trying to downplay your concerns, but I am getting rather tired of the same old arguments being brought up and hashed out again and again.

Devs, IIRC, something came up awhile back about putting this in the FAQ. Do you think someone could make a webpage just explaining all of this so the GIMP user community can put this subject to rest? =)

~Christen

2012-08-12 07:37:46 UTC (over 2 years ago)
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Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are taking about this is totally unjustified.

Then why are they getting it?

*half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration..... and I think that they deserve a little (read "a lot") of respect simply for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image editing software out there without being paid for it!

As I said, I have a lot of respect for open source developers - and as to the figures, I have no way (and neither do you) of knowing the exact percentage - maybe its more than half.

I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was, or at the very least have a "legacy save" option users can activate in the options so people like the original poster, myself and all the others who use Gimp regularly and hate this new save work-un-flow option can be happy again.

If you would read previous posts, you would know why this is not going to happen. As I stated earlier, if you really want it changed that badly, please feel free to modify the GIMP code.

I have read a lot of posts, and its a shame they've taken that stand. As I mentioned, I wonder if they would be so hard-nosed about it if it wasn't free and their income depended on their decisions. Fortunately for me, 2.6 does most of what I need.

Sorry if this email sounded harsh in any way. I'm not trying to downplay your concerns, but I am getting rather tired of the same old arguments being brought up and hashed out again and again.

Sorry if my reply sounds like I didn't buy any of what you said... its just that I didn't.

Devs, IIRC, something came up awhile back about putting this in the FAQ. Do you think someone could make a webpage just explaining all of this so the GIMP user community can put this subject to rest? =)

A FAQ will fix it? Awesome, how do I install that FAQ in GIMP so that the save behaviour returns to how it was... is there a FAQ for that?

Face it, its not going to be put to rest because too many people are upset by this change. Gimp used to be a great photo editor, now its useful but cumbersome to use because even if you open a JPG you can't even change the size and just save-as a JPG - that is just utter nonsense.

Finally, I too am sorry if this sounded harsh, but I'm quite annoyed about it. I shouldn't have to learn whatever language GIMP is written in, troll through the (assumed) 10's of thousands of lines of code and revert the menu back to what makes sense for those using GIMP for photo editing. That creates a fork, and if it suits people they will start using it... THAT will split the community... and the developer resources.

I'll say it again because I think its an idea with merit (and not without foundation, given the new integrated single-window mode which can be turned on or off) - make the menu options a... well... option! Give the users the decision instead of taking it away and causing all the grief that this has.

Steve

Daniel Hauck
2012-08-12 11:25:05 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

Why oh why does this have to go on?

In F/OSS projects, we have seen the results of projects upsetting the users and developers in XFree86 and more recently in GNOME. The result is that the project becomes irrelevant.

While the new behavior in GiMP is certainly more correct and more appropriate (I agree with the motion, but not the action) one has to take into account the human side of the issue. Let's look on this from an angle from which many of us can certainly identify.

The name "Jesus" is correctly pronounced [hey-soos']. Yet, when speaking of the religious figure with the name spelled "J-e-s-u-s" it is pronounced as [jee'-zuhs]. It is most certainly 'incorrect' by technical standards to pronounce the latter in any way other than [hey-soos'] and yet it will upset people tremendously if/when you do.

Now let's look at what we're experiencing here with GiMP. Kind of the same thing right? We're challenging the status quo of GUI behavior based on millions of man-years of user experience where "Save" saves a file in the same name and format it was opened and "Save as..." gives the user a chance to change the name and/or format. This has been a defacto standard behavior in GUIs for decades. This move was bound to upset people and it has. The whole point of the GUI is to be consistent and predictable.

Now I'll insert my own pet peeve here. Lotus Notes. The client found in 6.5 which is STILL in use in some large companies, has decided that the F5 key means "lock the client requiring a password to open it." Secondly, when does an APPLICATION need to be locked? It's the screen which needs to be locked, not the app! Firstly, F5 has always been "Refresh" as far as I'm concerned and most users agree with this expectation. And after three years of using Lotus Notes, I am STILL not quite used to it and have to consciously think each time I want to do a refresh and this is now thinking which I normally wouldn't need to do... thinking which interrupts other flows and thinking which interrupts the way I work even outside of Lotus Notes. And when I use other programs and OSes and press F5, I am reminded of how much Lotus Notes upsets me.

And this is not even an extreme example from my own personal experience... just a more recent and common one which which other Lotus Notes users will agree.

And I would also like to point out that a GUI is a HUMAN interface. It's how humans interact with software in this case. Since when is a GUI to be used as a means of correcting human thought and behavior?

I have already demonstrated how software behavior can upset people and have indicated how upset users can affect projects. So what can or should we expect from developers? Nothing. As they have rightly pointed out, this is their project. They decide where it goes and why. Users don't [usually] pay for or contribute to the project monetarily. (Though that makes a good argument when they do and that the developers who accept contributions or payment are obligated to listen and respond to the users.) And developers don't [usually] get paid for their work. So what should we expect from all of this controversy and discussion?

I think it's pretty clear what users and developers want and they aren't the same. And there is the very human issue of pride now at stake as well. "It's *my project* and I don't have to change it for anyone!" "Why do I need to apologize for being correct or doing the right thing?!" But I would like to say to developers the following:

1. You will NEVER be able to teach the Christian people of the U.S. to say [hey-soos'] instead of [jee'-zuhs]. Never. 2. You will NEVER be able to change the existing GUI users expectations over "Save/Save as..." and to do so causes an abrasive user experience which will never go away causing a seething hate which persists and even grows with every click not only within the GiMP but within every program which uses the accepted standard behavior of "Save/Save as..."

The goal, purpose or intent may be to be more correct or even to help save the user and his projects from his own human mistakes. I certainly identify with those ideas and often which I could address those issues myself. But as a systems administrator and support engineer, I have learned you simply cannot expect to change a person's whole world or mind through a single project or endeavor and trying to do so will result in nothing good.

Patrick Shanahan
2012-08-12 11:38:38 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

* kiwi_steve [08-12-12 03:40]:

But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are taking about this is totally unjustified.

Then why are they getting it?

Because people feel they are *owed* but have no investment in the creation and/or further development.

*half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration..... and I think that they deserve a little (read "a lot") of respect simply for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image editing software out there without being paid for it!

As I said, I have a lot of respect for open source developers - and as to the figures, I have no way (and neither do you) of knowing the exact percentage - maybe its more than half.

I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was, or at the very least have a "legacy save" option users can activate in the options so people like the original poster, myself and all the others who use Gimp regularly and hate this new save work-un-flow option can be happy again.

If you would read previous posts, you would know why this is not going to happen. As I stated earlier, if you really want it changed that badly, please feel free to modify the GIMP code.

I have read a lot of posts,

But not here or you would know that Akkana Peck has writen a plug-in to provide the action you desire.

and its a shame they've taken that stand. As I mentioned, I wonder if they would be so hard-nosed about it if it wasn't free and their income depended on their decisions.

In other words, they are free to change GIMP as they see fit since they have ownership, ie: you do not *have* to use it.

Fortunately for me, 2.6 does most of what I need.

Then what is your point?

Daniel Hauck
2012-08-12 11:52:29 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/12/2012 07:25 AM, Daniel Hauck wrote:

Why oh why does this have to go on?

Oh, and just to add one other thing:

Why, in the "File->Save as..." dialog do other graphical file formats appear in the file browsing? If this is to be a consistent behavior, why taunt the user (and his expectations) by showing them *.JPG and other files and then not allow them to save in that format? When you try, a dialog box comes up saying "nope! you want to do that, go do this other thing." Imagine being at an intersection on the road, then turning right only to find a sign appears saying "you can't turn right here" *after* you made the turn already!

If the purpose is to upset people, then it's working. If the purpose is to educate people about something, then the message was lost with confusion and negative emotional response.

maderios
2012-08-12 14:05:12 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/11/2012 11:40 PM, Gfxuser wrote:

On 11.08.12 at 23:19 maderios wrote:

For me, "export" word is useless and confusing. Export to what? To jpeg, png, xcf, tiff ? It depends on the file where you start. You could start with a jpeg and want to export to .xcf, or the contrary....

Hi Maderios,

the 'save and export' behaviour as been discussed at the mailing lists during the last months very widely and thoroughly. There's also an article about it at
http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/gimp-2.8-understanding-ui-changes. Please be so kind and check them first. Judging from the amount of postings to only this one topic I guess all your questions and concerns are answered there.

Best regards,

grafxuser

Hi grafxuser

The problem is not "to understand" ! All I know, all I see, is that the change "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8 complicates my life too. I use working method with Gimp-2.6 that allows me to save much time and sweat. Unfortunately this method is impossible with Gimp-2.8, so, logically, I no longer use Gimp-2.8. This is final unless Gimp-2.6 facilities "save" and "save as" are available again. I wish this was a problem of adaptation, it would have been simpler. This is not the case.

Another problem in 2.8: When you open a file like bird.jpeg, the file name "bird.jpeg" doesnt appear in the title bar. I only see "bird imported"....... It is very important to see in the window which file type you edit.

Best regards Maderios

Patrick Shanahan
2012-08-12 14:43:50 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

* maderios [08-12-12 10:06]:
...

The problem is not "to understand" ! All I know, all I see, is that the change "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8 complicates my life too. I use working method with Gimp-2.6 that allows me to save much time and sweat. Unfortunately this method is impossible with Gimp-2.8, so, logically, I no longer use Gimp-2.8.

Problem would appear to be *selective* reading of the list as Akkana Peck has provided a plug-in to provide your desired action *and* posted notice here.

This is final unless Gimp-2.6 facilities "save" and "save as" are available again. I wish this was a problem of adaptation, it would have been simpler. This is not the case.

I don't believe *threatening* the developers with *your* decision will have *little* effect.

Another problem in 2.8:

?? bug report number ??

maderios
2012-08-12 15:06:21 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/12/2012 04:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* maderios [08-12-12 10:06]:
...

The problem is not "to understand" ! All I know, all I see, is that the change "save" and "save as" in Gimp-2.8 complicates my life too. I use working method with Gimp-2.6 that allows me to save much time and sweat. Unfortunately this method is impossible with Gimp-2.8, so, logically, I no longer use Gimp-2.8.

Problem would appear to be *selective* reading of the list as Akkana Peck has provided a plug-in to provide your desired action *and* posted notice here.

This is final unless Gimp-2.6 facilities "save" and "save as" are available again. I wish this was a problem of adaptation, it would have been simpler. This is not the case.

I don't believe *threatening* the developers with *your* decision will have *little* effect.

I present here just my personal point of view. Developers do what they want ...

May be interesting. Upstream disconnected from the user base ? https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-April/107586.html http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-April/107603.html http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-May/107697.html

isabel brison
2012-08-12 15:25:37 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 12 August 2012 08:37, kiwi_steve wrote:

But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are taking about this is totally unjustified.

Then why are they getting it?

I've always heard you shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. We're getting awesome software absolutely free and yet some people still complain because it's not exactly what they wanted. So why are the devs getting all that flak? I'm beginning to think it's just plain bad manners.

*half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration..... and I think that they deserve a little (read "a lot") of respect simply for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image editing software out there without being paid for it!

As I said, I have a lot of respect for open source developers - and as to the figures, I have no way (and neither do you) of knowing the exact percentage - maybe its more than half.

Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a hundred? Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. Are you seriously claiming to speak for those people? Any disgruntled GIMP user can probably find this list if they have something to say. If they don't, then they don't.

Christen Anderson
2012-08-12 15:36:04 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 8/12/2012 9:25 AM, isabel brison wrote:

On 12 August 2012 08:37, kiwi_steve > wrote:

>But I have to say, the amount of flak the developers are >taking about this is totally unjustified.

Then why are they getting it?

I've always heard you shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. We're getting awesome software absolutely free and yet some people still complain because it's not exactly what they wanted. So why are the devs getting all that flak? I'm beginning to think it's just plain bad manners.

>*half* their user base? I think that's rather an exaggeration..... >and I think that they deserve a little (read "a lot") of respect simply
>for being willing to go to all the work of creating the best image >editing software out there without being paid for it!

As I said, I have a lot of respect for open source developers - and as to the figures, I have no way (and neither do you) of knowing the exact percentage - maybe its more than half.

Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a hundred? Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. Are you seriously claiming to speak for those people? Any disgruntled GIMP user can probably find this list if they have something to say. If they don't, then they don't.

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

+100
:)
~Christen

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-12 15:42:28 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:03 AM, kiwi_steve wrote:

And judging from the number of people (myself included) who are still annoyed about it and asking for it to be put back the way it was, the questions and concerns are NOT being answered - unless you call telling people to just get used to it because thats how it is now a solution.

The Gimp development team needs to listen, and listen carefully.

So the point you are making is that until we do as you say we never listen to you?

I have respect for open-source developers

Sorry, but you haven't.

I hope they're not thinking that because they're not getting paid they can trample over half their user-base with impunity.

And this proves that you don't have any respect for us.

I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was,

Steve, we've already said we are not going to do that. Persisting on that over and over again won't change that, but you will make us grumpier and less willing to work on the project. Please think about it.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-12 15:56:28 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Daniel Hauck wrote:

The name "Jesus" is correctly pronounced [hey-soos'].

Oh boy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Etymology_of_name

I think it's pretty clear what users and developers want and they aren't the same.

There we go again. Let me reinstate that: there are no "users" (as there are no "developers"). There is a certain group of users we are now catering to at the cost of losing some part of the former community. It was to be expected. We knew that and we take responsibility for that decision.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Ken Warner
2012-08-12 16:01:21 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

Your implied assertion that people who remain silent support the new interface cannot be validated -- just like the arbitrary design choices that led to this discussion.

On 8/12/2012 8:25 AM, isabel brison wrote:

Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a hundred? Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. Are you seriously claiming to speak for those people? Any disgruntled GIMP user can probably find this list if they have something to say. If they don't, then they don't.

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-12 16:04:34 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:37 AM, kiwi_steve wrote:

Gimp used to be a great photo editor, now its useful but cumbersome to use because even if you open a JPG you can't even change the size and just save-as a JPG - that is just utter nonsense.

You absolutely can. It's just called differently, and you can always remap hotkeys.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Andrew Clarke
2012-08-12 16:04:40 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

"but you will make us grumpier and less willing to work on the project"

Please don't get grumpy, because GIMP is GREAT and its moving forward. I am looking forward to higher bit processing...

I wish at times we could close some threads as I am getting a little tied of deleting emails, forums have some advantages to mailing lists...

On 12/08/2012 16:42, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:03 AM, kiwi_steve wrote:

And judging from the number of people (myself included) who are still annoyed about it and asking for it to be put back the way it was, the questions and concerns are NOT being answered - unless you call telling people to just get used to it because thats how it is now a solution.

The Gimp development team needs to listen, and listen carefully.

So the point you are making is that until we do as you say we never listen to you?

I have respect for open-source developers

Sorry, but you haven't.

I hope they're not thinking that because they're not getting paid they can trample over half their user-base with impunity.

And this proves that you don't have any respect for us.

I humbly ask that the developers please put it back the way it was,

Steve, we've already said we are not going to do that. Persisting on that over and over again won't change that, but you will make us grumpier and less willing to work on the project. Please think about it.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-12 16:17:24 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Daniel Hauck wrote:

Why, in the "File->Save as..." dialog do other graphical file formats appear in the file browsing? If this is to be a consistent behavior, why taunt the user (and his expectations) by showing them *.JPG and other files and then not allow them to save in that format? When you try, a dialog box comes up saying "nope! you want to do that, go do this other thing." Imagine being at an intersection on the road, then turning right only to find a sign appears saying "you can't turn right here" *after* you made the turn already!

If the purpose is to upset people, then it's working. If the purpose is to educate people about something, then the message was lost with confusion and negative emotional response.

It is simply a bug which you could have reported without all the additional overreaction and speculation.

Thanks, this will be looked at.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-12 17:02:07 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, daniel wrote:

Is there any reason you skipped over the part about the damage caused by deviations from the accepted standard for user interface behavior and how it affects not only the user work flow in GiMP but also in other programs a user may use at the same time?

Yes, there is a reason. I'm bored to death explaining that this is not a deviation. But since you are specifically asking about it...

GIMP is targeted at workflows that involve multilayered projects, masks, paths etc. If you pick pretty much any serious digital media production tool that combines bits of data inside, you'll see that it only saves to its native file format and maybe to a few exchange file formats such as AAF or OMF.

Compositing software such as Nuke or Ramen? Check. Digital audio workstations such as Logic or Ardour? Check. Non-linear video editors such as Premiere or Kdenlive? Check.

Do their provide optional saving behavior? Check.

I've already heard people coming with professional background in media production wondering, why folks make all this fuzz about save/export. Because the change makes sense to them, and it's exactly the kind of people we are targeting.

And targeting a certain group of people (or, rather, their workflows) doesn't mean that we hate other groups of users and their workflows or neglect them. The whole secondary workflow was designed to address the needs of people who want to just save changes back to the original file. This is how we "hate" you.

We've gone from "it seemed like a good idea at the time" to "it's too late to change, the decision has been made."

_We_ haven't.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-12 17:09:07 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:01 PM, Ken Warner wrote:

Your implied assertion that people who remain silent support the new interface cannot be validated -- just like the arbitrary design choices that led to this discussion.

I'm bound to ask you, if there's something wrong with your perception of reality.

"...there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about" absolutely doesn't imply that.

This is not black and white world where people either support or not support things. There's such a thing as indifference.

We know absolutely nothing about what all those people think. And since we don't, there's nothing we can or should do about it. Worrying about the unknown is the single most meaningless activity.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-12 17:12:30 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

Why, in the "File->Save as..." dialog do other graphical file formats appear in the file browsing? If this is to be a consistent behavior, why taunt the user (and his expectations) by showing them *.JPG and other files and then not allow them to save in that format? When you try, a dialog box comes up saying "nope! you want to do that, go do this other thing." Imagine being at an intersection on the road, then turning right only to find a sign appears saying "you can't turn right here" *after* you made the turn already!

If the purpose is to upset people, then it's working. If the purpose is to educate people about something, then the message was lost with confusion and negative emotional response.

It is simply a bug which you could have reported without all the additional overreaction and speculation.

By the way, drc just made a good point on IRC that showing files like JPG and PNG there allows easily picking an existing filename to call the file after.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Maarten De Munck
2012-08-12 18:23:35 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

Alexandre Prokoudine schreef op zo 12-08-2012 om 21:09 [+0400]:

"...there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about" absolutely doesn't imply that.

This is not black and white world where people either support or not support things. There's such a thing as indifference.

We know absolutely nothing about what all those people think. And since we don't, there's nothing we can or should do about it. Worrying about the unknown is the single most meaningless activity.

Well,

I do follow the gimp-user list for some time now and I really do like the new behaviour.

I use Gimp (and often Cinepaint too, at least until Gimp supports 16 bit per channel; I noticed the git development version does, but it looks like it still has some issues with colors/color profiles, but thats a different story) for editing scanned black and white and color images, which often involves quite some layer/selection/mask work (I more or less do what I do in the darkroom too and most of the time, it involves selections, layers and masks). And I absolutely love the new behaviour for these tasks. It is easy to export intermediate results to send to others or to compare changes to.

It is maybe not necessary for simpler tasks, but for these tasks exporting (without saving) and realising that nothing is lost by not saving isn't too cumbersome either. I agree that maybe 2.6 was a little bit easier for these tasks, but I prefer the advantages of the new behaviour for the photos which require more work.

So please, don't count my silence so far as indifference...

Maarten De Munck

jfrazierjr@nc.rr.com
2012-08-12 18:56:08 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

So please, don't count my silence so far as indifference...

Likewise... my silence is not indifference... I LOVE the new behavior. For what I do most, which is creating/editing images with multiple layer/mask support, the change is EXTREMELY welcome.

First you have gotten rid of the annoying popup windows telling me I am loosing data when "saving" to jpeg/png.

However, MOST IMPORTANTLY, the change now prevents an change being made with layer, mask, or other non JPEG functionality support, saving to jpeg, and the accidentally closing the image without first saving to xcf to ensure those changes are preserved. While it did not happen often in 2.6, it did happen enough to really appreciate the new behavior.

Also, for me... EVEN if I hated the new behavior, for me the new features such as resource tagging, brush dynamics(I use a pen/tablet), Layer Groups(though really wish the masking would work on groups.. but will have to wait for 2.10 for that), and other new features are well worth the small change in routine. Of course, this does not even count all of the upcoming changes which will make life so much easier in 2.10, 3.0, and beyond such as layer adjustment masks, etc. For these features alone, I would gladly change my long standing habits.

I also want to express my deep appreciation and respect for you guys who spend countless hours of your free time with little to nothing in return. As a few others have noted, I also am getting really tired of hearing all of the people acting like children who are not getting their way. I mean seriously, why keep arguing? The decision has been made, it was made on purpose, it was provided YEARS in advance for those who actually gave a DAMN about their input being heard so that they could provide their input(and in some cases ,their input allowed for some slight tweaks to be made while still following the direction the product wanted to head).

Bottom line, if you don't like the new behavior please note your complaint ONCE and then move on... decide if you will relearn behaviors to accommodate the new GIMP UI, roll back to a previous version of GIMP(and thus never get new features again), fork the code, or find a new piece of software. This constant back and forth is pointless trolling... your not going to win and your just doing more to alienate the developers. Perhaps YOU may want GIMP 2.6 to be the perfect GIMP, but you risk ruining for everyone who either don't care about the new save vs export or those who like it from loosing the developers(and thus future updates) of the project.

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-13 02:12:51 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sunday 12 August 2012 21:02:07 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:30 PM, daniel wrote:

Is there any reason you skipped over the part about the damage caused by deviations from the accepted standard for user interface behavior and how it affects not only the user work flow in GiMP but also in other programs a user may use at the same time?

Yes, there is a reason. I'm bored to death explaining that this is not a deviation. But since you are specifically asking about it...

GIMP is targeted at workflows that involve multilayered projects, masks, paths etc. If you pick pretty much any serious digital media production tool that combines bits of data inside, you'll see that it only saves to its native file format and maybe to a few exchange file formats such as AAF or OMF.

Compositing software such as Nuke or Ramen? Check. Digital audio workstations such as Logic or Ardour? Check. Non-linear video editors such as Premiere or Kdenlive? Check.

Do their provide optional saving behavior? Check.

I've already heard people coming with professional background in media production wondering, why folks make all this fuzz about save/export. Because the change makes sense to them, and it's exactly the kind of people we are targeting.

And targeting a certain group of people (or, rather, their workflows) doesn't mean that we hate other groups of users and their workflows or neglect them. The whole secondary workflow was designed to address the needs of people who want to just save changes back to the original file. This is how we "hate" you.

We've gone from "it seemed like a good idea at the time" to "it's too late to change, the decision has been made."

_We_ haven't.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Thank you yet again for the repeated explanation, Alexandre.

Allow me to just add in simple terms, GIMP, as excellent as an editor that it is aimed at WORKFLOWS, and although a simple Open File > Resize > Export (Ctrl+E or Shift+Ctrl+E ... or if anyone wishes, remap the shortcut to Ctrl+S) is also tolerable, the developers' target is serious GIMP use.

The choices are simple. If users cannot adapt, stay with 2.6 or look for another editor that works for the users' purposes. Or learn to adapt, which requires very little amount of effort and brain function. If you feel, you've been left out, that is just too bad. Learn to live with it.

Give it up with the "hate" messages. It is clear that the changes are here to stay. I want it to stay, as do many others.

Respect to those who deserve, Archie

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-13 02:16:07 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Sunday 12 August 2012 09:01:21 Ken Warner wrote:

Your implied assertion that people who remain silent support the new interface cannot be validated -- just like the arbitrary design choices that led to this discussion.
On 8/12/2012 8:25 AM, isabel brison wrote:

Let's think: how many people have written in about this? Fifty, a hundred? Count the emails if you like. And then there are thousands more GIMP users who didn't find the issue was worth complaining about. Are you seriously claiming to speak for those people? Any disgruntled GIMP user can probably find this list if they have something to say. If they don't, then they don't.

I am usually silent on matters like these but too much is too much. A crystal clear explanation has been given. Why can't it just be, "OK I understand what you are saying, Alexandre. Thank you and goodbye"?

I support the new interface. I am one of the silent one who is now standing up.

bruno@buys.net.br
2012-08-13 16:26:20 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:55:05 -0500, Jim Clark wrote:

Are you

saying you would like to see the thousands/millions of contented users say so? Please don't encourage that! (Though I am one.) My mail box is already full to overflowing with this discussion that is clearly going nowhere. Remember the serenity prayer--there are some things that just are and you've got recognize them

This is one.

I have just

downloaded a sound processing program called Audacity. Putzed around, hit save and was told "This will save in Audacity's native format; for wave files use 'Export'." I was telling my son about the grief the developers were taking and, surprise, that's how Audacity does the same thing and he said, "That's also how Photoshop does it."

Please.

Truce.

Thanks-

Jim Clark

My exact feeling.

maderios
2012-08-13 16:58:24 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote:

I have just downloaded a sound processing program called Audacity. Putzed around, hit save and was told "This will save in Audacity's native format; for wave files use 'Export'." I was telling my son about the grief the developers were taking and, surprise, that's how Audacity does the same thing and he said, "That's also how Photoshop does it."

You confuse professional and amateur work..... I'm Audacity user. It works well for "amateurs", not for professionnal people. You can't compare it with Gimp. Gimp is used by professional. When you build an image, it needs hundred and hundred operations. Imagine You may create images every day... The new weird and boring Gimp-2.8 behavior (concerning "save" or "save as" functions) is not compatible with professional work. Sorry...

Regards Maderios

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-13 17:05:23 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:58 PM, maderios wrote:

On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote:

You confuse professional and amateur work..... I'm Audacity user. It works well for "amateurs", not for professionnal people.

I hate to tell you, but Audacity is extensively used in the professional podcasters community.

Yes, personally I'd go for a DAW (and I do), but it doesn't mean Audacity cannot be used professionally.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-13 17:43:05 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Monday 13 August 2012 18:58:24 maderios wrote:

On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote:

I have just downloaded a sound processing program called Audacity. Putzed around, hit save and was told "This will save in Audacity's native format; for wave files use 'Export'." I was telling my son about the grief the developers were taking and, surprise, that's how Audacity does the same thing and he said, "That's also how Photoshop does it."

You confuse professional and amateur work..... I'm Audacity user. It works well for "amateurs", not for professionnal people. You can't compare it with Gimp. Gimp is used by professional. When you build an image, it needs hundred and hundred operations. Imagine You may create images every day... The new weird and boring Gimp-2.8 behavior (concerning "save" or "save as" functions) is not compatible with professional work. Sorry...

Regards Maderios

LibreOffice is another good example. If you open a .doc and Save, it will ask you if you want to save it in native Open Document format. Inkscape will not save a PNG, you'd need to Export it. Save will make your file an SVG or SVGZ.

etc.

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-13 17:46:17 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Monday 13 August 2012 21:05:23 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:58 PM, maderios wrote:

On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote: You confuse professional and amateur work.....
I'm Audacity user. It works well for "amateurs", not for professionnal

people.

I hate to tell you, but Audacity is extensively used in the professional podcasters community.

Yes, personally I'd go for a DAW (and I do), but it doesn't mean Audacity cannot be used professionally.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

As a Linux user, I use LMMS. Save, native format. Export, OGG, MP3.

maderios
2012-08-13 18:09:23 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/13/2012 07:43 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote:

On Monday 13 August 2012 18:58:24 maderios wrote:

On 08/13/2012 03:55 PM, Jim Clark wrote:

I have just downloaded a sound processing program called Audacity.

Putzed around, hit save and was told "This will save in Audacity's

native format; for wave files use 'Export'." I was telling my son

about the grief the developers were taking and, surprise, that's how

Audacity does the same thing and he said, "That's also how Photoshop

does it."

You confuse professional and amateur work.....

I'm Audacity user. It works well for "amateurs", not for professionnal

people. You can't compare it with Gimp. Gimp is used by professional.

When you build an image, it needs hundred and hundred operations.

Imagine You may create images every day... The new weird and boring

Gimp-2.8 behavior (concerning "save" or "save as" functions) is not

compatible with professional work. Sorry...

Regards

Maderios

LibreOffice is another good example. If you open a .doc and Save, it will ask you if you want to save it in native Open Document format. Inkscape will not save a PNG, you'd need to Export it. Save will make your file an SVG or SVGZ.

Libreoffice doesnt ask you, you choose or write what you want. When you want to save with Libreoffice, or any editor, you are free to choose the name or extension. It's just GTK dialog, clear and quick. Impossible with Gimp-2.8. It's a regression. M

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-13 18:13:05 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:09 PM, maderios wrote:

LibreOffice is another good example. If you open a .doc and Save, it will ask you if you want to save it in native Open Document format.

Libreoffice doesnt ask you...

Oh, but it does ask you whether you really want to save to .doc instead of .odt. I can spread screenshots with a shovel, you know :)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Patrick Shanahan
2012-08-13 18:20:45 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

* maderios [08-13-12 14:09]:
...

Libreoffice doesnt ask you, you choose or write what you want. When you want to save with Libreoffice, or any editor, you are free to choose the name or extension. It's just GTK dialog, clear and quick. Impossible with Gimp-2.8. It's a regression.

In *your* eyes and you are entitled to your *opinion*. You have been told it is to be, why do you continue to argue?

You have been provided a ?work-a-round?.

Seems you have four choices/avenues available: 1. Akkana Peck's plug-in
2. Create a fork
3. Use different software
4. Use GIMP as provided

But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless.

Ken Warner
2012-08-13 18:35:38 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

"But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless."

This is most certainly and sadly true.

On 8/13/2012 11:20 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* maderios [08-13-12 14:09]:
...

Libreoffice doesnt ask you, you choose or write what you want. When you want to save with Libreoffice, or any editor, you are free to choose the name or extension. It's just GTK dialog, clear and quick. Impossible with Gimp-2.8. It's a regression.

In *your* eyes and you are entitled to your *opinion*. You have been told it is to be, why do you continue to argue?

You have been provided a ?work-a-round?.

Seems you have four choices/avenues available: 1. Akkana Peck's plug-in
2. Create a fork
3. Use different software
4. Use GIMP as provided

But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless.

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-13 19:00:24 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote:

"But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless."

This is most certainly and sadly true.

How about looking at it this way...

We see the reasons behind the change, we were able to adapt to it.

Stating that GIMP that the changes are a regression is like saying just change the version number and we'll call that development.

Learn to adapt to the changes. Maybe you'll feel better about yourselves.

On 8/13/2012 11:20 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* maderios [08-13-12 14:09]:
...

Libreoffice doesnt ask you, you choose or write what you want. When you want to save with Libreoffice, or any editor, you are free to choose the name or extension. It's just GTK dialog, clear and quick.

Impossible with Gimp-2.8. It's a regression.

In *your* eyes and you are entitled to your *opinion*. You have been told it is to be, why do you continue to argue?

You have been provided a ?work-a-round?.

Seems you have four choices/avenues available: 1. Akkana Peck's plug-in
2. Create a fork
3. Use different software
4. Use GIMP as provided

But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless.

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

maderios
2012-08-13 19:09:33 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/13/2012 09:00 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote:

On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote:

"But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless."

This is most certainly and sadly true.

How about looking at it this way...

We see the reasons behind the change

May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ?

Regards Maderios

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-13 19:44:27 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Monday 13 August 2012 21:09:33 maderios wrote:

On 08/13/2012 09:00 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote:

On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote:

"But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless."

This is most certainly and sadly true.

How about looking at it this way...

We see the reasons behind the change

May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ?

Regards Maderios

Go over the whole thread please. You might have missed Alexandre's explanation.

Ofnuts
2012-08-13 19:45:48 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/13/2012 09:09 PM, maderios wrote:

On 08/13/2012 09:00 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote:

On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote:

"But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless."

This is most certainly and sadly true.

How about looking at it this way...

We see the reasons behind the change

May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ?

Before:

- Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Save as... PNG
- Exits -> lost the last changes in layers, paths, masks

So somewhere you need some way to tell Gimp that when you save as PNG (or JPG/GIF/TIIF) you aren't really saving.

Now: - Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Export as... PNG
- Exits -> Gimp complains image not saved -> No loss of layers, paths, masks

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-13 19:54:01 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Monday 13 August 2012 21:45:48 Ofnuts wrote:

On 08/13/2012 09:09 PM, maderios wrote:

On 08/13/2012 09:00 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote:

On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote:

"But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless."

This is most certainly and sadly true.

How about looking at it this way...

We see the reasons behind the change

May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ?

Before:

- Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Save as... PNG
- Exits -> lost the last changes in layers, paths, masks

So somewhere you need some way to tell Gimp that when you save as PNG (or JPG/GIF/TIIF) you aren't really saving.

Now: - Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Export as... PNG
- Exits -> Gimp complains image not saved -> No loss of layers, paths, masks

Sum it up in one word. GIMP WORKFLOW. OK, that's two words. But hey, we can't agree which is a better workflow so forget about GIMP! ;D

maderios
2012-08-13 21:29:41 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/13/2012 09:45 PM, Ofnuts wrote:

We see the reasons behind the change

May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ?

Before:

- Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Save as... PNG
- Exits -> lost the last changes in layers, paths, masks

So somewhere you need some way to tell Gimp that when you save as PNG (or JPG/GIF/TIIF) you aren't really saving.

Now: - Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Export as... PNG
- Exits -> Gimp complains image not saved -> No loss of layers, paths, masks

Hi Ofnuts

You don't answer my question about the reasons of the change concerning save and save as.
I simply try to understand and it's not easy because the change is not coherent.
It is strange that evolution that leads to slow down workflow is presented as a progress ...
I started my Linux and Gimp user life in 1999: Redhat, Mandrake, Suse, Mandriva, Fedora, Debian now, the best ... I don't like desktops like Gnome, Kde, Xfce. I use E17, very light and nice desktop (yes it is), quite a long time http://www.enlightenment.org/
I had time and I take time to train me to adapt but I can't adapt to waste my time with this incoherent behavior of "save" in Gimp-2.8. My job is the priority, so back to Gimp-2.6. I have time to wait...... Perhaps we'll open a "wishlist" bug ? I don't know....

Regards
Maderios

Ofnuts
2012-08-14 11:01:35 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/13/2012 11:29 PM, maderios wrote:

On 08/13/2012 09:45 PM, Ofnuts wrote:

We see the reasons behind the change

May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ?

Before:

- Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Save as... PNG
- Exits -> lost the last changes in layers, paths, masks

So somewhere you need some way to tell Gimp that when you save as PNG (or JPG/GIF/TIIF) you aren't really saving.

Now: - Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Export as... PNG
- Exits -> Gimp complains image not saved -> No loss of layers, paths, masks

Hi Ofnuts

You don't answer my question about the reasons of the change concerning save and save as.
I simply try to understand and it's not easy because the change is not coherent.
It is strange that evolution that leads to slow down workflow is presented as a progress ...
I started my Linux and Gimp user life in 1999: Redhat, Mandrake, Suse, Mandriva, Fedora, Debian now, the best ... I don't like desktops like Gnome, Kde, Xfce. I use E17, very light and nice desktop (yes it is), quite a long time http://www.enlightenment.org/
I had time and I take time to train me to adapt but I can't adapt to waste my time with this incoherent behavior of "save" in Gimp-2.8. My job is the priority, so back to Gimp-2.6. I have time to wait...... Perhaps we'll open a "wishlist" bug ? I don't know....

With the previous behavior, if you "save" in a non-XCF file format, then all you save is a flattened image on which further work is near impossible. And since you have "saved" the image, you can quit Gimp without updating the XCF of disk and you lost some of your work. Many people have been burnt by this. Another use case is working on a complex image, and producing proof images (PNG/JPG) at various stages. WIth the current behavior, you change the "base name" of the image, further saves clobers the proof images. So you have to remember to resave as XCF. The current behavior makes it more obvious when you save to the XCF and when you produce some other format. So now Gimp comes with a safety belt/hard hat. You may find it annoying but you really get used to it and one day it will save your day.

maderios
2012-08-14 13:13:54 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/14/2012 01:01 PM, Ofnuts wrote:

On 08/13/2012 11:29 PM, maderios wrote:

On 08/13/2012 09:45 PM, Ofnuts wrote:

We see the reasons behind the change

May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ?

Before:

- Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Save as... PNG
- Exits -> lost the last changes in layers, paths, masks

So somewhere you need some way to tell Gimp that when you save as PNG (or JPG/GIF/TIIF) you aren't really saving.

Now: - Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks - Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer
- Does Export as... PNG
- Exits -> Gimp complains image not saved -> No loss of layers, paths, masks

Hi Ofnuts

You don't answer my question about the reasons of the change concerning save and save as.
I simply try to understand and it's not easy because the change is not coherent.
It is strange that evolution that leads to slow down workflow is presented as a progress ...
I started my Linux and Gimp user life in 1999: Redhat, Mandrake, Suse, Mandriva, Fedora, Debian now, the best ... I don't like desktops like Gnome, Kde, Xfce. I use E17, very light and nice desktop (yes it is), quite a long time http://www.enlightenment.org/
I had time and I take time to train me to adapt but I can't adapt to waste my time with this incoherent behavior of "save" in Gimp-2.8. My job is the priority, so back to Gimp-2.6. I have time to wait...... Perhaps we'll open a "wishlist" bug ? I don't know....

Hi Ofnuts

With the previous behavior, if you "save" in a non-XCF file format, then all you save is a flattened image on which further work is near impossible.

Yes, but you have the choice. It's the most important. Editing images requires some attention....

And since you have "saved" the image, you can quit Gimp without updating the XCF of disk and you lost some of your work. Many people have been burnt by this.

Because they don't pay attention and don't save their work !

Another use case is working on a complex image, and producing proof images (PNG/JPG) at various stages. WIth the current behavior, you change the "base name" of the image, further saves clobers the proof images. So you have to remember to resave as XCF. The current behavior makes it more obvious when you save to the XCF and when you produce some other format. So now Gimp comes with a safety belt/hard hat.

I never lost any image when editing with Gimp during 13 years. You have to save files according to the progress of the work, of course. What you call "safety belt/hard hat" is useless for me and it slows down workflow.

Regards
Maderios

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-14 13:33:20 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:13 PM, maderios wrote:

Earlier today:

This error takes away Gimp-2.8 of the world of the professional_s_.

And now:

What you call "safety belt/hard hat" is useless for _me_...

This is the main problem I have with your argumentation: talking for many people, while it's just about your personal preferences.

You've been provided options. What is your reason for continuing this thread?

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Ken Warner
2012-08-14 15:07:57 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

1) What if saving a flattened image is exactly what I want to do. 2) It is not exactly true that "further work is near impossible".

On 8/14/2012 4:01 AM, Ofnuts wrote:

With the previous behavior, if you "save" in a non-XCF file format, then all you save is a flattened image on which further work is near impossible. gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Burnie West
2012-08-14 16:39:20 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/14/2012 08:07 AM, Ken Warner wrote:

1) What if saving a flattened image is exactly what I want to do.

It's easy - just export it

2) It is not exactly true that "further work is near impossible".

But without the layers saved separately it's a lot more complex -- of course, depending on specifically what "further work" you want to do.

Richard Gitschlag
2012-08-14 16:58:10 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:45:48 +0200 From: ofnuts@laposte.net
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior




On 08/13/2012 09:09 PM, maderios wrote:



On 08/13/2012 09:00 PM, Archie Arevalo wrote:


On Monday 13 August 2012 11:35:38 Ken Warner wrote:
> "But, continuing to *argue* here is fruitless."
>
> This is most certainly and sadly true. >

How about looking at it this way...
We see the reasons
behind the change

May you explain here the reasons of the change concerning save and save as ?


Before:

- Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks

- Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer

- Does Save as... PNG

- Exits -> lost the last changes in layers, paths, masks

So somewhere you need some way to tell Gimp that when you save as PNG (or JPG/GIF/TIIF) you aren't really saving.

Now:

- Creates complex images with several layers, paths, masks

- Wants a PNG to show Mr Customer

- Does Export as... PNG

- Exits -> Gimp complains image not saved -> No loss of layers, paths, masks

This comparison of GIMP 2.6 and 2.8 demonstrates one of the reasons why the save/export distinction was made in the first place. If you're working on a multilayer XCF composition and use the "Save" command on a non-XCF (e.g. PNG) format, then:

- GIMP doesn't warn you about unsaved changes when you try to exit. - Further invocations of the "Save" command target the PNG file, not your original XCF. (You should have used the "Save a Copy" command instead of "Save", but I guess nobody ever uses that). You have to manually "Save As" on the XCF filename again.

The most consistent way of solving the issue was to separate XCF and standard file formats into separate commands. Now I am not entirely happy with it - over half my work in GIMP currently involves writing to standard image files so I definitely would like to see an "Export/cancel" warning instead of just a warning if you try to type in a non-XCF filename, and I still think "Save a Copy" should be merged as part of the "Export" command since the only (user-visible) difference between them is the type of file format they write to (neither of them cleans the image status or changes the filename associated with the image). But I am also familiar enough with the whole "project" concept to know when I should keep a workfile handy so I can come back and work on it later.

Another thing that I would like to see, however, is a confirmation warning if you try to use the Overwrite command on a JPEG file; lossy compression and all that....

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Ken Warner
2012-08-14 17:59:13 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file? 2) Your assumption is that there are layers after the image is flattened seems odd.

On 8/14/2012 9:39 AM, Burnie West wrote:

On 08/14/2012 08:07 AM, Ken Warner wrote:

1) What if saving a flattened image is exactly what I want to do.

It's easy - just export it

2) It is not exactly true that "further work is near impossible".

But without the layers saved separately it's a lot more complex -- of course, depending on specifically what "further work" you want to do. _______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-14 19:21:15 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ken Warner wrote:

1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file?

Gmail tells me there are 58 deleted messages in this conversation (yes). That is, after 58 messages you still don't understand the key difference between a native file format and a lossy file format.

I think it's a call to close the conversation and kindly ask you to start learning essential principles of digital imaging before reopening the discussion.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Ken Warner
2012-08-14 19:27:19 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

...and it still seems as if you have a reading comprehension problem.

I asked a simple question -- I think if you would take the time to try and understand the question, you wouldn't be so insulting to people who disagree with your "design principles".

On 8/14/2012 12:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ken Warner wrote:

1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file?

Gmail tells me there are 58 deleted messages in this conversation (yes). That is, after 58 messages you still don't understand the key difference between a native file format and a lossy file format.

I think it's a call to close the conversation and kindly ask you to start learning essential principles of digital imaging before reopening the discussion.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
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gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

maderios
2012-08-14 19:40:24 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On 08/14/2012 09:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ken Warner wrote:

1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file?

Gmail tells me there are 58 deleted messages in this conversation (yes). That is, after 58 messages you still don't understand the key difference between a native file format and a lossy file format.

I think it's a call to close the conversation and kindly ask you to start learning essential principles of digital imaging before reopening the discussion.

Only "a native file format and a lossy file format" ? Hum .... (in french, sorry)
Native for who ? I presume .xcf is native for you. Not for me if I start with a png, smaller than a xcf.
An image file is not "native" or lossy.... Ex Lossy format: jpeg, gif
Ex Non lossy: png, tiff xcf
People are free to work with jpeg or gif. If they want to loss some qualities, they can do do it if they know (or not, why not) what they do. May be, they want to experiment, may be they'll find new forms, nobody knows....
Jpeg is destructive, may be it's interesting do destroy picture ? Artist is free. Technics are made to be forgotten, otherwise, no Art....

Best regards Maderios

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-08-14 19:58:25 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:40 PM, maderios wrote:

Only "a native file format and a lossy file format" ? Hum .... (in french, sorry)
Native for who ?

61 deleted messages later you finally started asking the right kind of questions :)

As already explained on a frigging huge amount of occasions that you choose to ignore, GIMP is streamlined for people who work on complex multilayered compositions with masks and whatnot, where XCF is always saved, and files in delivery formats (e.g. PNG) are exported.

Therefore the only native file format for GIMP is XCF. Period.

Therefore GIMP always imports JPEG or PNG instead of just opening it. Full stop.

I can see how using "Open" could be a bit confusing as it both opens (XCF) and imports (JPEG), but let's face it: this is not the reason Ken and you are arguing till you are blue in the face.

Ex Non lossy: png, tiff...

Oh, but they are. They do not preserve masks, and, when saved form GIMP, TIFF does not preserve layers. It's lossy, no matter how much you want to argue.

Please just use Krita.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-15 04:04:19 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

1. Export it to JPEG and exit GIMP or close the file clicking No you don't want to save as XCF. The point is for many work that are done and when it is saved as a PNG, and OMG the file was now opened as PNG and I closed it ... all your layers are gone! It's a failsafe.
2. Then it really is a minimal bother to anyone to Ctrl+E or Ctrl+Shift+E, be done with the file and close GIMP or the file clicking No you don't want a XCF.

It simply required a little bit of not-so-hard rethinking.

On Tuesday 14 August 2012 10:59:13 Ken Warner wrote:

1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file? 2) Your assumption is that there are layers after the image is flattened seems odd. On 8/14/2012 9:39 AM, Burnie West wrote:

On 08/14/2012 08:07 AM, Ken Warner wrote:

1) What if saving a flattened image is exactly what I want to do.

It's easy - just export it

2) It is not exactly true that "further work is near impossible".

But without the layers saved separately it's a lot more complex -- of course, depending on specifically what "further work" you want to do.
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-15 04:14:17 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Tuesday 14 August 2012 21:40:24 maderios wrote:

On 08/14/2012 09:21 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Ken Warner wrote:

1) Well then, if I open a jpg file and make layers and paths etc. and want
to save my work, why is it anathema to export it as an XCF file?

Gmail tells me there are 58 deleted messages in this conversation (yes). That is, after 58 messages you still don't understand the key difference between a native file format and a lossy file format.

I think it's a call to close the conversation and kindly ask you to start learning essential principles of digital imaging before reopening the discussion.

Only "a native file format and a lossy file format" ? Hum .... (in french, sorry)
Native for who ? I presume .xcf is native for you. Not for me if I start with a png, smaller than a xcf.
An image file is not "native" or lossy.... Ex Lossy format: jpeg, gif
Ex Non lossy: png, tiff xcf
People are free to work with jpeg or gif. If they want to loss some qualities, they can do do it if they know (or not, why not) what they do. May be, they want to experiment, may be they'll find new forms, nobody knows....
Jpeg is destructive, may be it's interesting do destroy picture ? Artist is free. Technics are made to be forgotten, otherwise, no Art....

Best regards Maderios

PNG and JPG are not GIMP's native format. XCF is GIMPS native format as PSD is Photoshop's. PNG and JPEG are just some of the formats GIMP or Photoshop can be exported to so other apps can use them too.

There is no contest to what formats people want to work in or use.

Artists are not bounded by restrictions that such things should be so but rather experiment, use, employ what is available and create something new from these. I don't know who said that but that's what I would define an artist.

I'm sorry to be so blatantly direct but so many just have rocks in their brains.

Peace and much respect, (Maybe not for some)
Archie

Archie Arevalo
2012-08-15 04:16:12 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Gimp-2.8_Save and save as bad behavior

On Tuesday 14 August 2012 23:58:25 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:40 PM, maderios wrote:

Only "a native file format and a lossy file format" ? Hum .... (in french, sorry)
Native for who ?

61 deleted messages later you finally started asking the right kind of questions :)

As already explained on a frigging huge amount of occasions that you choose to ignore, GIMP is streamlined for people who work on complex multilayered compositions with masks and whatnot, where XCF is always saved, and files in delivery formats (e.g. PNG) are exported.

Therefore the only native file format for GIMP is XCF. Period.

Therefore GIMP always imports JPEG or PNG instead of just opening it. Full stop.

I can see how using "Open" could be a bit confusing as it both opens (XCF) and imports (JPEG), but let's face it: this is not the reason Ken and you are arguing till you are blue in the face.

Ex Non lossy: png, tiff...

Oh, but they are. They do not preserve masks, and, when saved form GIMP, TIFF does not preserve layers. It's lossy, no matter how much you want to argue.

Please just use Krita.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Or mtpaint.