Sign up now! · Forgot password?
RSS/Atom feed identi.ca Twitter

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

This discussion is connected to the gimp-user-list.gnome.org mailing list which is provided by the GIMP developers and not related to gimpusers.com.

17 of 17 messages available
Toggle history

Please log in to manage your subscriptions.

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior isabel brison 17 Jul 20:08
  DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Johannes 17 Jul 20:34
   DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Daniel Hauck 17 Jul 22:19
    DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Richard Gitschlag 17 Jul 23:41
     DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior scott s. 21 Jul 23:43
      DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 22 Jul 00:44
       DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Richard Gitschlag 22 Jul 01:44
        DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Liam R E Quin 22 Jul 02:04
   DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior John Coppens 21 Jul 15:46
  DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Ken Warner 17 Jul 21:50
  DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior ang3la 29 Jul 20:41
   DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Daniel Hauck 29 Jul 20:56
    DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Richard Gitschlag 31 Jul 16:11
     DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Liam R E Quin 31 Jul 18:39
      DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Richard Gitschlag 01 Aug 16:01
     DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Gfxuser 01 Aug 05:42
DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior Alexandre Prokoudine 31 Jul 20:51
isabel brison
2012-07-17 20:08:41 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

I rather like it actually...

I do GIMP workshops for (mainly) old ladies who don't know the first thing about computers, but enjoy themselves doing silly photomontages and messing around with pictures of their grandchildren. They used to regularly lose their only original versions of pics through not knowing the difference between "save" and "save as" (and also not knowing the meaning of "backup").
Now I can relax because this "export" business has created a safeguard against that sort of thing, though I hate to think what will happen if my old ladies (being deviously expert at messing things up) discover the "overwrite" command.

:-)

Johannes
2012-07-17 20:34:53 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Am 17.07.2012 22:08, schrieb isabel brison:

I rather like it actually...

I do GIMP workshops for (mainly) old ladies who don't know the first thing about computers, but enjoy themselves doing silly photomontages and messing around with pictures of their grandchildren. They used to regularly lose their only original versions of pics through not knowing the difference between "save" and "save as" (and also not knowing the meaning of "backup").
Now I can relax because this "export" business has created a safeguard against that sort of thing, though I hate to think what will happen if my old ladies (being deviously expert at messing things up) discover the "overwrite" command.

Glad to read this.

But I guess the old ladies wouldn't find the opt-out switch for this behavior in the GIMP preferences, if there was any. So you could still be relaxed and happy.

:-)

Ken Warner
2012-07-17 21:50:11 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

So the GIMP is for professionals AND old ladies. :-)

On 7/17/2012 1:08 PM, isabel brison wrote:

I rather like it actually...

I do GIMP workshops for (mainly) old ladies who don't know the first thing about computers, but enjoy themselves doing silly photomontages and messing around with pictures of their grandchildren. They used to regularly lose their only original versions of pics through not knowing the difference between "save" and "save as" (and also not knowing the meaning of "backup").
Now I can relax because this "export" business has created a safeguard against that sort of thing, though I hate to think what will happen if my old ladies (being deviously expert at messing things up) discover the "overwrite" command.

:-)

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Daniel Hauck
2012-07-17 22:19:43 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

On 07/17/2012 04:34 PM, Johannes wrote:

Am 17.07.2012 22:08, schrieb isabel brison:

Now I can relax because this "export" business has created a safeguard against that sort of thing, though I hate to think what will happen if my old ladies (being deviously expert at messing things up) discover the "overwrite" command.

Glad to read this.

But I guess the old ladies wouldn't find the opt-out switch for this behavior in the GIMP preferences, if there was any. So you could still be relaxed and happy.

:-)

I am with Isabel on that point. For new users, this fact translates more directly with what people understand. And here's the thing. Most I tend to think people who use GiMP aren't coming from Photoshop. They are using GiMP because it's an affordable alternative. So this is their first go around. But still, it's foreign in the sense that almost no other program does it like this. Word processors and spreadsheets don't do it like this. It's one of those things that, while technically more proper/correct, takes some getting used to.

My first impression of this change was "what the heck?!" and then quickly figured out what the deal was and then I had to admit to myself "this is more correct" even if it was unexpected.

That said, I am concerned about meta data. If there was meta data when imported, there should be at least the option of preserving the meta data. I'd like to see that added into the code if it's not already there somehow. Sometimes I like it when there are GPS coordinates in a picture, for example, because a lot of other programs will pick up on it... for example, web galleries might pick that up and when I want travel, having the GPS data available will allow me to map travels and such. Also, date/time and which camera I used is also useful information at times. What difference does it make if I enhance the image in some way? I still want to keep the meta data with the image.

Richard Gitschlag
2012-07-17 23:41:10 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 18:19:43 -0400 From: daniel@yacg.com
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

That said, I am concerned about meta data. If there was meta data when imported, there should be at least the option of preserving the meta data. I'd like to see that added into the code if it's not already there somehow. Sometimes I like it when there are GPS coordinates in a picture, for example, because a lot of other programs will pick up on it... for example, web galleries might pick that up and when I want travel, having the GPS data available will allow me to map travels and such. Also, date/time and which camera I used is also useful information at times. What difference does it make if I enhance the image in some way? I still want to keep the meta data with the image.

GIMP preserves EXIF metadata when exporting as JPG - the option is there on the Export dialog and it's checked by default. I agree on the point though - whether or not GIMP needs to load the metadata in an image is distinct from whether the user cares about having that metadata. If you open a TIF file, what happens to the metadata when you export, and especially if you overwrite?

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

John Coppens
2012-07-21 15:46:06 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 22:34:53 +0200 Johannes wrote:

But I guess the old ladies wouldn't find the opt-out switch for this behavior in the GIMP preferences, if there was any. So you could still be relaxed and happy.

Not entirely sure. I'm guessing a frequent action on a computer (windooze or linux) is editing a picture from a camera (jpg) and sending it along. So, with Gimp 2.8, those old ladies will end up with a bunch of .xcfs which they won't be able to pass on to other, non-gimp users.

So, they'll have to learn how to export to .jpg, which seems an extra complication.

John

scott s.
2012-07-21 23:43:25 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

On 7/17/2012 13:41, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

GIMP preserves EXIF metadata when exporting as JPG - the option is there on the Export dialog and it's checked by default. I agree on the point though - whether or not GIMP needs to load the metadata in an image is distinct from whether the user cares about having that metadata. If you open a TIF file, what happens to the metadata when you export, and especially if you overwrite?

Well I can you if it is a GEOTiff (standard defined set of Tiff tags) they are lost. That of course is true whether you save an xcf or export back to tiff. IIUC GIMP uses a 3rd party library to read tiff, and I guess GIMP spec doesn't specify if on import if GIMP is to retain meta-data, silently dispose of it, or alert the user that meta-data may be lost.

scott s.
.

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-07-22 00:44:51 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 3:43 AM, scott s. wrote:

Well I can you if it is a GEOTiff (standard defined set of Tiff tags) they are lost. That of course is true whether you save an xcf or export back to tiff. IIUC GIMP uses a 3rd party library to read tiff, and I guess GIMP spec doesn't specify if on import if GIMP is to retain meta-data, silently dispose of it, or alert the user that meta-data may be lost.

As already explained in this thread, libtiff simply doesn't support preserving metadata.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Richard Gitschlag
2012-07-22 01:44:12 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 04:44:51 +0400 From: alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 3:43 AM, scott s. wrote:

Well I can you if it is a GEOTiff (standard defined set of Tiff tags) they are lost. That of course is true whether you save an xcf or export back to tiff. IIUC GIMP uses a 3rd party library to read tiff, and I guess GIMP spec doesn't specify if on import if GIMP is to retain meta-data, silently dispose of it, or alert the user that meta-data may be lost.

As already explained in this thread, libtiff simply doesn't support preserving metadata.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

So that would fall into the "silently dispose" category, then.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Liam R E Quin
2012-07-22 02:04:19 UTC (over 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

On Sat, 2012-07-21 at 18:44 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

[Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 3:43 AM, scott s. wrote:

[...] GIMP uses a 3rd party library to read tiff, and I guess GIMP spec doesn't specify if on import if GIMP is to retain meta-data, silently dispose of it, or alert the user that meta-data may be lost.

As already explained in this thread, libtiff simply doesn't support preserving metadata.

So that would fall into the "silently dispose" category, then.

GIMP can't warn about losing metadata if it doesn't know whether such metadata was present.

Having said that, libtiff3 includes the tiffinfo program which is able to display XMP and EXIF metadata from the tiff files I tried. So in fact I think it's the tiff-load and tiff-save file plugins that might be waiting for someone to write a patch to support metadata.

Liam

2012-07-29 20:41:44 UTC (about 2 years ago)
postings
1
contact
Send private message

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

I LOVE the export feature!
I make a LOT of price tags in GIMP. It is WONDERFUL to export the file and not have to re-open the .XCF file over and over. It saves a lot of repeat processes.

I also love the new tab interface for open GIMP files!

I rather like it actually...

I do GIMP workshops for (mainly) old ladies who don't know the first thing about computers, but enjoy themselves doing silly photomontages and messing around with pictures of their grandchildren. They used to regularly lose their only original versions of pics through not knowing the difference between "save" and "save as" (and also not knowing the meaning of "backup").
Now I can relax because this "export" business has created a safeguard against that sort of thing, though I hate to think what will happen if my old ladies (being deviously expert at messing things up) discover the "overwrite" command.

:-)

Daniel Hauck
2012-07-29 20:56:20 UTC (about 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Agreed on that point.

But since you brought up the tabbed interface, I thought I would bring up an expectation/usability problem I came across while looking 2.8.0 over... (I'm still learning it actually... not enough time to really sit and play... when I use it, there is a purpose and a limited amount of time.)

I wanted to use the single window option. And when I wanted to copy a layer from one tab to another, I wanted to be able to grab the layer from the layer panel, drag it and drop it onto a tab. It doesn't work. What works, I figured out eventually, is holding it over a tab until it becomes selected and then I can drop onto the canvas. It's not "intuitive" if I expected one behavior and it didn't work... well, that's my opinion anyway. I'm quite sure the current method of operation is deliberate, though, as the expected behavior seems too obvious. So I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind not doing it that way. Perhaps there is a very good reason I haven't thought of yet. (Always a possibility)

On 07/29/2012 04:41 PM, ang3la wrote:

I LOVE the export feature!
I make a LOT of price tags in GIMP. It is WONDERFUL to export the file and not have to re-open the .XCF file over and over. It saves a lot of repeat processes.

I also love the new tab interface for open GIMP files!

I rather like it actually...
I do GIMP workshops for (mainly) old ladies who don't know the first thing about computers, but enjoy themselves doing silly photomontages and messing around with pictures of their grandchildren. They used to regularly lose their only original versions of pics through not knowing the difference between "save" and "save as" (and also not knowing the meaning of "backup").
Now I can relax because this "export" business has created a safeguard against that sort of thing, though I hate to think what will happen if my old ladies (being deviously expert at messing things up) discover the "overwrite" command.
:-)

Richard Gitschlag
2012-07-31 16:11:14 UTC (about 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 16:56:20 -0400 From: daniel@yacg.com
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Agreed on that point.

But since you brought up the tabbed interface, I thought I would bring up an expectation/usability problem I came across while looking 2.8.0 over... (I'm still learning it actually... not enough time to really sit and play... when I use it, there is a purpose and a limited amount of time.)

I wanted to use the single window option. And when I wanted to copy a layer from one tab to another, I wanted to be able to grab the layer from the layer panel, drag it and drop it onto a tab. It doesn't work. What works, I figured out eventually, is holding it over a tab until it becomes selected and then I can drop onto the canvas. It's not "intuitive" if I expected one behavior and it didn't work... well, that's my opinion anyway. I'm quite sure the current method of operation is deliberate, though, as the expected behavior seems too obvious. So I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind not doing it that way. Perhaps there is a very good reason I haven't thought of yet. (Always a possibility)

As a quick comparison, Windows doesn't allow you to drag-and-drop items directly onto an application's taskbar button either and I don't understand why.

I agree with you, if you drag-and-drop a layer onto a GIMP tab (other than the current image) this can and possibly should be interpreted as "paste as new layer in said image".

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Liam R E Quin
2012-07-31 18:39:19 UTC (about 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

On Tue, 2012-07-31 at 09:11 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

As a quick comparison, Windows doesn't allow you to drag-and-drop items directly onto an application's taskbar button either and I don't understand why.

Win 95 and Win XP did, in general, I don't know about later versions of Windows. It's not instant, you have to hover over the tab for a second or two.

I agree with you, if you drag-and-drop a layer onto a GIMP tab (other than the current image) this can and possibly should be interpreted as "paste as new layer in said image".

If you hover over the tab long enough the current image changes, and you can then drop the layer.

Liam

Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-07-31 20:51:15 UTC (about 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

If you hover over the tab long enough the current image changes

And that "long enough" is less than a second, as far as I can tell :)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Gfxuser
2012-08-01 05:42:07 UTC (about 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Richard Gitschlag wrote:

As a quick comparison, Windows doesn't allow you to drag-and-drop items directly onto an application's taskbar button either and I don't understand why.

Windows 7 does it. Drag and drop a file onto the applications taskbar item. You will then be able to stick it to the applications jumplist or wait a short moment, till the application windows opens and then open it in the application.
I don't know anymore whether or how Windows Vista did it, but because Windows XP and Windows 7 can do it, there might be a way in Vista, too.

Best regards,

grafxuser

Richard Gitschlag
2012-08-01 16:01:51 UTC (about 2 years ago)

DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior

Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] DON'T HATE the new save vs. export behavior From: liam@holoweb.net
To: strata_ranger@hotmail.com
CC: daniel@yacg.com; gimp-user-list@gnome.org Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:39:19 -0400

On Tue, 2012-07-31 at 09:11 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

As a quick comparison, Windows doesn't allow you to drag-and-drop items directly onto an application's taskbar button either and I don't understand why.

Win 95 and Win XP did, in general, I don't know about later versions of Windows. It's not instant, you have to hover over the tab for a second or two.

I am referring to at least XP. Attempt to drag and drop a file anywhere onto the taskbar, including active application panels, and XP will tell you (and I quote) "you cannot drop an item onto a button on the Taskbar." Yes, it does say that you can hover it over said button for a second until the application window opens, then drop it onto the application window, but you still have to actually drag it into the application's window area before you release the mouse button - if you release the mouse button while inside the taskbar you always get that message as a result.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.