On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 14:59:06 -1000, Wayne Maeda wrote:

There's a new posting on Slashdot (slashdot.org) about how the GIMP compares
to Photoshop;"The Gimp from the Eyes of a Photoshop User." Note the loooong comment thread of complaints about GIMP's UI that follows.

Wayne

I haven't used GIMP on a Mac, but one of the reasons I like GIMP is its maybe
unusual on Windows but *very* appealing to me UI. While PS & others clutter the screen with absolutely useless bounding window, menu bar, tool windows that can only be on top of the image, GIMP has a beautiful flexible UI design (especially when you know about the TAB key :) ), it's also great for 2 monitor systems. And GIMP's very low memory consumption while in background is probably also because it's not MDI.

I'd regret it if GIMP would ever go MDI without leaving SDI option.

On Sat, May 01, 2004 at 08:47:36PM +0300, Nonexistent Entity wrote:

GIMP has a beautiful flexible UI design (especially when you know about the TAB key :) )

I am not aware of any tricks regarding the TAB key. Please would you be so kind as to clue me in. I just tried it in 1.2.3 (yeah, I know) on Linux and it doesn't do anything there. Perhaps it only works in later versions.

On Sat, 1 May 2004 20:40:28 +0200, Steve Crane wrote:

I am not aware of any tricks regarding the TAB key. Please would you be so kind as to clue me in. I just tried it in 1.2.3 (yeah, I know) on Linux and it doesn't do anything there. Perhaps it only works in later versions.

Well, when you press the TAB key while in Image Window - all other GIMP windows
will disappear (except for other image windows if you have multiple images open).
If you press TAB again the Toolbox will appear, after pressing it next time, all
previosly hidden windows will come back.

I read about it in "Grokking the GIMP" AFAIR. This works in GIMP 1.2.5 and 2.0.1
on Win32, but I think it should work on Linux too. It works only when you have an Image Window selected.

HTH

Hi,

"Nonexistent Entity" writes:

I read about it in "Grokking the GIMP" AFAIR. This works in GIMP 1.2.5 and 2.0.1 on Win32, but I think it should work on Linux too. It works only when you have an Image Window selected.

It's also explained in the startup tips:

If your screen is too cluttered, you can press Tab multiple times in an image window to hide or show the toolbox and other dialogs.

I strongly suggest reading the "Tips of the Day". There are a lot of very important hints in there.

Sven

On Sun, May 02, 2004 at 01:04:36AM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

If your screen is too cluttered, you can press Tab multiple times in an image window to hide or show the toolbox and other dialogs.

I strongly suggest reading the "Tips of the Day". There are a lot of very important hints in there.

I'll do that. I think I did once but have probably forgotten a bunch of useful things that I didn't actually start using. I found the tip about the Tab but it doesn't work. As I said before this is 1.2.3 on Linux (KDE). Pressing Tab with the image window focussed does nothing. I wonder if KDE is trapping the keystroke, preventing Gimp from receiving it?

Hi,

Steve Crane writes:

I found the tip about the Tab but it doesn't work. As I said before this is 1.2.3 on Linux (KDE). Pressing Tab with the image window focussed does nothing. I wonder if KDE is trapping the keystroke, preventing Gimp from receiving it?

That is most probably the case.

Sven

On Sun, 2 May 2004, Sven Neumann wrote:

Date: 02 May 2004 01:04:36 +0200
From: Sven Neumann
To: Nonexistent Entity
Cc: Gimp Users
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp on Slashdot

Hi,

"Nonexistent Entity" writes:

I read about it in "Grokking the GIMP" AFAIR. This works in GIMP 1.2.5 and 2.0.1 on Win32, but I think it should work on Linux too. It works only when you have an Image Window selected.

It's also explained in the startup tips:

If your screen is too cluttered, you can press Tab multiple times in an image window to hide or show the toolbox and other dialogs.

I strongly suggest reading the "Tips of the Day". There are a lot of very important hints in there.

Granted this works but lets face it until the Gimp provides the basic drawing tools that most users want people will continue to ask. I dont accept that Select+Stroke is adequate and neither will anyone that has used Microsoft Paint or Adobe Photoshop (which is almost everyone). Also Adobe Photoshop allows one to easily draw shapes (such as polygons) that are very difficult to draw using only select+Stroke.

How many more of these articles must be written before the Gimp developers accept that simple drawing tools are a must for a certain type of user?

If even you just accept that it is necessary and then blame lack of developer resources that would be a whole lot better than the current user hostile situtation by which users are blamed for not being "smart enough" to use the stroke tool.

There is NEVER any excuse to blame the user, if something is difficult then very likely it needs to be made easier and even if the user is completely wrong they should politely be directed to the FAQ or relevant documentation. There is never any excuse to berate users for not knowing something especially if there is not good easy to find documentation.

- Alan

Hi,

Alan Horkan writes:

How many more of these articles must be written before the Gimp developers accept that simple drawing tools are a must for a certain type of user?

We accepted this fact a long time ago. Pointing at it again doesn't hurt but in the end someone needs to sit down and write code.

Sven

On Wed, 5 May 2004, Sven Neumann wrote:

Date: 05 May 2004 02:13:13 +0200
From: Sven Neumann
To: Alan Horkan
Cc: Gimp Users
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp on Slashdot

Hi,

Alan Horkan writes:

How many more of these articles must be written before the Gimp developers accept that simple drawing tools are a must for a certain type of user?

We accepted this fact a long time ago. Pointing at it again doesn't hurt but in the end someone needs to sit down and write code.

While I cannot provide the code I guess what I can do is draw peoples attention to the bug that address their concerns. [So for user that want basic drawing tools in the Gimp it would be this bug report:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65197 ]

Everytime there is a new Gimp release or featured article the same issues come up, it is frustrating for everyone, clearly there is a knowledge gap. While I realise that much of the discussion on Slashdot is unhelpful it would be very good 'PR' if the Gimp developers could publically address a few of the significant issues and actively solicit code in the cases where that is all that is required.

Perhaps if voting was allowed on Gimp bugs in bugzilla it would become apparent which features are really most important to users?

Would it be acceptable to start a meta bug that that tried to group bugs that users familiar with Adobe Photoshop find particularly annoying?

An Official and up to date List of Frequently Asked Questions would probably help too (and I know from recent discussions that is something we would all like to see).

I did a quick look for FAQ and found this and the date at the bottom of the page (1996-1998) suggests it is not actively maintained. http://www.rru.com/~meo/gimp/faq-user.html And this FAQ is unofficial but it seems to be more recently maintained http://home.planet.nl/~dark-echo/gimp-faq/ And there is the GUG FAQs
http://gug.sunsite.dk/faq.php

Are there any other users currently maintaining FAQ that could be "blessed" and turned into an Official FAQ and put on the website into some sort of content management system (like Wiki, preferably one that supports HTML syntax)?

I'm throwing out some ideas because I want to try and be constructive but I have exams coming up soon so I can only do a very limited amount at the moment.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

I read the article and comments on Slashdot (like others have) and then the comments below.

For the most part, I think the GImp users are happy with it. The vast majority of discussion that goes on in this list deals with questions asked about performing certain functions or tasks (the "How do I" questions), followed by some questions asking when Gimp will support some functionality, like CMYK support and support for 16-bit images (please excuse my incorrect use of terminology), etc. Before the Slashdot article, I don't recall seeing many, if any, "Gimp sucks" posts or anything like that here. In fact, I recall reading comments from a number of PhotoShop users who converted or are in the process of converting to using Gimp and those seem to be the main people asking for CMYK and that kind of enhancement/support.

The point is, I don't think things in "Gimp land" are as bad as your comments indicate. It's clear from the comments in the Slashdot article that a number of people either don't like or don't "get" the Gimp interface. I've got no issue with those comments since people are allowed to have their opinions. However, I don't think Gimp is "broken" or severely "deficient" or anything like that. It works quite well for me and Gimp 2.0.1 runs well on both my Windows and Linux systems. The UI, even on Windows, isn't a mystery at all, or maybe I'm just used to it. The Gimp interface seemed "natural" to me since I come from a Unix background moreso than a Windows background so I'm not expecting Gimp to behave like any other Windows app *just because* it runs on Windows. I'm sure at some point that might happen and then I'm not sure what I'll do. :)

Seriously, we all know Gimp isn't perfect and could use improvement (outside of blatant bugs that need fixing, etc) and I have confidence in the Gimp developers that it WILL improve over time. I consider Gimp 2 to be a considerable improvement over Gimp 1.2, even though we're all wanting to get some of the old plug-ins and filters back. :) What I find most interesting is people are more willing to criticize and critique than they are to submit "useful" information through the feeedback mechanisms in place, whether that be through submitting Bug Reports or posting comments on the mailing list or maybe making use of the Wiki on the Gimp site (if that's appropriate).

Maybe I'm in the minority here but I'm a happy Gimp user and I'm sticking with it, "cumbersome" UI and all. :)

Peace....

Tom

Alan Horkan To Sent by: gimp-user-bounces cc @lists.xcf.berkel Gimp Users ey.edu Subject Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp on Slashdot 05/05/2004 03:16 PM

On Wed, 5 May 2004, Sven Neumann wrote:

Date: 05 May 2004 02:13:13 +0200
From: Sven Neumann
To: Alan Horkan
Cc: Gimp Users
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Gimp on Slashdot

Hi,

Alan Horkan writes:

How many more of these articles must be written before the Gimp developers accept that simple drawing tools are a must for a certain type of user?

We accepted this fact a long time ago. Pointing at it again doesn't hurt but in the end someone needs to sit down and write code.

While I cannot provide the code I guess what I can do is draw peoples attention to the bug that address their concerns. [So for user that want basic drawing tools in the Gimp it would be this bug report:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65197 ]

Everytime there is a new Gimp release or featured article the same issues come up, it is frustrating for everyone, clearly there is a knowledge gap. While I realise that much of the discussion on Slashdot is unhelpful it would be very good 'PR' if the Gimp developers could publically address a few of the significant issues and actively solicit code in the cases where that is all that is required.

Perhaps if voting was allowed on Gimp bugs in bugzilla it would become apparent which features are really most important to users?

Would it be acceptable to start a meta bug that that tried to group bugs that users familiar with Adobe Photoshop find particularly annoying?

An Official and up to date List of Frequently Asked Questions would probably help too (and I know from recent discussions that is something we would all like to see).

I did a quick look for FAQ and found this and the date at the bottom of the page (1996-1998) suggests it is not actively maintained. http://www.rru.com/~meo/gimp/faq-user.html And this FAQ is unofficial but it seems to be more recently maintained http://home.planet.nl/~dark-echo/gimp-faq/ And there is the GUG FAQs
http://gug.sunsite.dk/faq.php

Are there any other users currently maintaining FAQ that could be "blessed" and turned into an Official FAQ and put on the website into some sort of content management system (like Wiki, preferably one that supports HTML syntax)?

I'm throwing out some ideas because I want to try and be constructive but I have exams coming up soon so I can only do a very limited amount at the moment.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

Hi,

Alan Horkan writes:

Perhaps if voting was allowed on Gimp bugs in bugzilla it would become apparent which features are really most important to users?

It just doesn't work that way. The developers know quite well what features are most requested but that doesn't necessarily make them sit down in their free time and implement them. The weight that a particular feature request gets depends a lot on who asks for it. If someone who has contributed in whatever way to The GIMP project asks for a certain feature, chances are that it will get done that very day. If thousand anonymmous cowarsds at slashdot break out in flame-baits about how sucky the user interface is, that will likely turn any developer down enough to not write a single line of code.

There has to be a certain fun part about hacking a feature. Let me give you an example. Jimmac and Tigert sat down yesterday and created a mockup of how an improved "File New" dialog could look like. It has been a pleasure for me to implement this mockup for them or, thanks to IRC even with them.

If you want to see a certain area of a free software project to be improved, you can of course attempt to draw developer's attention on that area by pointing at it over and over again. This may work but it's not likely that it will unless you give your voice some weight. A well-done argumentation is a good start. Detailed suggestions (like a dialog mockup or other proposals) get you a good deal further. Being known as a contributor (not necessarily of code) probably gets you the most extra points.

Would it be acceptable to start a meta bug that that tried to group bugs that users familiar with Adobe Photoshop find particularly annoying?

All these requests and meta tracking bugs, voted or not, won't change the fact that some volunteer developer needs to sit down and write the code. That someone needs motivation. Adding yet another tracking bug surely won't hurt but I don't see it motivating anyone.

Sven

From: Alan Horkan

Adobe Photoshop allows one to easily draw shapes (such as polygons) that are very difficult to draw using only select+Stroke.

Cinepaint has the drawing code. They took the vector drawing plugin and made it work directly within the image.

The ex-plugin has a lot of room for improvements, but it is a start of something.

How many more of these articles must be written before the Gimp developers accept that simple drawing tools are a must for a certain type of user?

But maybe they are not that easy to code? Adding a vector layer to the images should be easy if the image object is good, but the vector manipulations can be difficult. Typically each plugin has its own kludge way to manipulate vector objects (selection tools, crop tool, etc). The selection tool vector drawing and the crop tool vector drawing are not visible in other views of the same image because the framework is kludge.

What we need is a good old vertex/edge/polygon framework. We don't have even the simplest systems developed at 1960s. Check out ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/sci/audio/devel/constraints/sketchpad.pdf what I mean.

I'm figuring out what kind of framework would be ok. Anyone would like to help?

Regards,
Juhana

Juhana Sadeharju (kouhia@nic.funet.fi) wrote:

But maybe they are not that easy to code? Adding a vector layer to the images should be easy if the image object is good, but the vector manipulations can be difficult. Typically each plugin has its own kludge way to manipulate vector objects (selection tools, crop tool, etc). The selection tool vector drawing and the crop tool vector drawing are not visible in other views of the same image because the framework is kludge.

What we need is a good old vertex/edge/polygon framework. We don't have even the simplest systems developed at 1960s. Check out ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/sci/audio/devel/constraints/sketchpad.pdf what I mean.

The Link you gave does not work.

I'm figuring out what kind of framework would be ok. Anyone would like to help?

Why isn't this discussed on gimp-devel?

In fact there is a vector based infrastructure and I also believe that it is quite flexible. Simply fiddle a bit with the Path tool to get an idea how this works.

Yes, it is not integrated in all the places where it should be, but it definitely is there and it definitely is quite flexible (although I am biased about that).

Maybe you should look at the code before drawing conclusions like "the framework is kludge". I've put quite a lot of work into that stuff and I'd like to see at least some reasons *why* it supposedly is a cludge.

Bye, Simon