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Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command default to 'New layer with last values'

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Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command default to 'New layer with last values' Martin Nordholts 17 May 09:17
  Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command default to 'New layer with last values' Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris 17 May 10:01
   Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 13:40
    Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris 17 May 13:45
     Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 13:52
      Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay Alexandre Prokoudine 17 May 14:08
       Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 14:27
        Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay Alexandre Prokoudine 17 May 14:35
         Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 14:44
          Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay Simon Budig 17 May 15:06
           Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 15:22
            Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Simon Budig 17 May 15:48
             Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 15:57
              Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Simon Budig 17 May 16:19
               Suggestion: Makethe'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 16:31
              Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Roel Schroeven 17 May 23:55
            Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Michael Natterer 17 May 15:54
             Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 16:05
    Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay Simon Budig 17 May 14:09
     Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 14:24
      Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay Alexandre Prokoudine 17 May 14:32
       Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 14:41
        Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay Alexandre Prokoudine 17 May 14:52
         Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 15:01
          Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay Alexandre Prokoudine 17 May 15:07
           Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 15:20
            Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Alexandre Prokoudine 17 May 15:32
             Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 15:42
         Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay Alan Horkan 17 May 16:31
          Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 16:44
      Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay Simon Budig 17 May 14:53
       Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 15:15
     Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay Toby Speight 17 May 14:41
      Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New Martin Nordholts 17 May 14:46
Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command default to 'New layer with last values' saulgoode@brickfilms.com 17 May 19:24
  Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay Martin Nordholts 17 May 19:32
Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command default to 'New layer with last values' Jason Park 19 May 05:32
Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 09:17:36 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command default to 'New layer with last values'

Hi Everyone!

It's me, the Xtns -> Extensions guy if you remember.

I've been using GIMP over the last months to really get to know it, and I must admit that the workflow improves dramatically once you start to really get into the UI.

I have however noticed one thing that I think could be improved. I've found myself using the 'New layer' command on the 'Layers' window quite often, and it is very rare that I want to change the properties of the layer. (The absolute most frequenty new-layer-command is 'create a new transparent layer the same size as the image').

I propose a small change to the code. Since it is very few lines, I thought that creating a .diff file would be overkill, so I'll just write the changes here:

In gimp-2.3.8/app/widgets/gimplayertreeview.c swap place of the new layer callbacks so it becomes this:

item_view_class->new_action = "layers-new-last-values"; item_view_class->new_default_action = "layers-new";

In gimp-2.3.8/app/actions/layers-actions.c, make layers_new_last_vals_cmd_callback() be invoked when N is pressed (instead of layers_new_cmd_callback()).

If you need this as a formal patch, let me know and I'll create one.

IMO this improves the workflow futher.

/Martin Nordholts

__________________

Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
2006-05-17 10:01:04 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command default to 'New layer with last values'

inestead of that
hold shift
!
it has been dthe default through the 2.0 series, and it was not firendly to novies.
You just hold shift whenpressing the new layer button.

thank you for your interest, an dyou are welcome to more suggestions. But this one is not a bug.

On Wednesday 17 May 2006 04:17 am, Martin Nordholts wrote:

Hi Everyone!

It's me, the Xtns -> Extensions guy if you remember.

I've been using GIMP over the last months to really get to know it, and I must admit that the workflow improves dramatically once you start to really get into the UI.

I have however noticed one thing that I think could be improved. I've found myself using the 'New layer' command on the 'Layers' window quite often, and it is very rare that I want to change the properties of the layer. (The absolute most frequenty new-layer-command is 'create a new transparent layer the same size as the image').

I propose a small change to the code. Since it is very few lines, I thought that creating a .diff file would be overkill, so I'll just write the changes here:

In gimp-2.3.8/app/widgets/gimplayertreeview.c swap place of the new layer callbacks so it becomes this:

item_view_class->new_action = "layers-new-last-values"; item_view_class->new_default_action = "layers-new";

In gimp-2.3.8/app/actions/layers-actions.c, make layers_new_last_vals_cmd_callback() be invoked when N is pressed (instead of
layers_new_cmd_callback()).

If you need this as a formal patch, let me know and I'll create one.

IMO this improves the workflow futher.

/Martin Nordholts

__________________

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 13:40:15 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay

Given these conditions

1. GIMP wants to provide its users with a good workflow, independent and unaffected by other similar applications. 2. The majority of 'New layer' commands are equal, i.e. users rarely changes the properties (width, height, prefilled color, etc) of a new layer

I fail to see why this should not be adjusted.

According to my (quite ignorant, and I'm sorry for that) previous discussions on this list; condition #1 is fulfilled, so the only 'non-proven' condition is #2 which I am pretty confident is also valid. If needed this could be futher investigated.

One other alternative be to provide a key-shortcut which would create a new layer with the previous properties, which would allow people using key-commands frequently to speed up their workflow. I mean it isn't especailly effective to neither Shift-Click nor click 'New Layer' and then click 'Ok'.

I'm sorry if this was interpreted as a 'bug-fix', because that is not what this is.

From: "Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris" To: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New layer with last values' Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 05:01:04 -0300

inestead of that hold shift
!
it has been dthe default through the 2.0 series, and it was not firendly to novies.
You just hold shift whenpressing the new layer button.

thank you for your interest, an dyou are welcome to more suggestions. But this one is not a bug.

__________________

Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris
2006-05-17 13:45:53 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay

On Wednesday 17 May 2006 08:40 am, Martin Nordholts wrote:

One other alternative be to provide a key-shortcut which would create a new layer with the previous properties,

which part of "hold shift" in my e-mail was that hard to understand?

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 13:52:40 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay

Which part of "improve workflow" in my e-mail was hard to understand?

I mean you can't possibly mean that it is more effective to Shift-Click than to only Click?

From: "Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris" To: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:45:53 -0300

On Wednesday 17 May 2006 08:40 am, Martin Nordholts wrote:

One other alternative be to provide a key-shortcut which would create a new layer with the previous properties,

which part of "hold shift" in my e-mail was that hard to understand?

Alexandre Prokoudine
2006-05-17 14:08:15 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay

On 5/17/06, Martin Nordholts wrote:

Which part of "improve workflow" in my e-mail was hard to understand?

I mean you can't possibly mean that it is more effective to Shift-Click than to only Click?

Do you have showable results of a usability study that clearly states that GIMP should always create new layer with previous settings? Is there any statistics that in most cases users don't change color of background (and other options) in a new layer?

I just want to make sure that we are not talking about your personal preferences and your personal workflow ;-)

Alexandre

Simon Budig
2006-05-17 14:09:28 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay

Martin Nordholts (enselic@hotmail.com) wrote:

1. GIMP wants to provide its users with a good workflow, independent and unaffected by other similar applications. 2. The majority of 'New layer' commands are equal, i.e. users rarely changes the properties (width, height, prefilled color, etc) of a new layer

I fail to see why this should not be adjusted.

As Joao already said, it is quite easy to create a new layer with the default properties. Just Shift-Click on the "New Layer" button in the layers dialog.

We earlier had it the other way around: Click would create the layers with the defaults, Shift-Click would show the dialog. We then switched it around again, because Shift-Clicking to get the dialog, made the dialog a pretty hidden feature. Most people would not even be aware that there is a dialog, that is pretty useful at times.

If the dialog pops up it is pretty easy to basically ignore it and hit "OK". The other way around is not so easy to solve.

Better have an undiscoverable workflow-optimization than an undiscoverable feature.

If you know about the Shift-Click it basically is not more or less convenient than a simple click on the button. Hence I don't see how switching this around again would drastically improve the workflow.

I'd say, lets stick to the current solution, it works good enough (TM) and we don't need to invent a different way to create new layers.

Bye, Simon

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 14:24:11 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay

We earlier had it the other way around: Click would create the layers with the defaults, Shift-Click would show the dialog. We then switched it around again, because Shift-Clicking to get the dialog, made the dialog a pretty hidden feature. Most people would not even be aware that there is a dialog, that is pretty useful at times.

Ah, it was the other way around before, I see.

From previous discussions however, I concluded that GIMP is not inteded to

be an app for newbies, but rather be effective to its faithful users.

Better have an undiscoverable workflow-optimization than an undiscoverable feature.

Note that the patch does not affect that when you use the Layer _menu_ instead of the shortcut button in the Layer window, the dialog shows as default. I find this quite logical too, that the "shortcut" command should be fast, and the "slower" menu command should offer more details.

If you know about the Shift-Click it basically is not more or less convenient than a simple click on the button. Hence I don't see how switching this around again would drastically improve the workflow.

Having to use two hands instead of one is a dramatic loss of workflow IMHO. If you would want _one_ new layer per image, than this doesn't matter. However, for more serious work where creating many layers often, having to use the left hand for shift is not effective I think.

__________________

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 14:27:46 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay

(? my reply seems to have been lost, I will reply again)

Well no, I have no statistics :)

As I said though, we could gather some if needed. Maybe some admid could ask on the Users list
if they find it appropriate.

From: "Alexandre Prokoudine"
To: GIMPDev
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:08:15 +0400

On 5/17/06, Martin Nordholts wrote:

Which part of "improve workflow" in my e-mail was hard to understand?

I mean you can't possibly mean that it is more effective to Shift-Click than
to only Click?

Do you have showable results of a usability study that clearly states that GIMP should always create new layer with previous settings? Is there any statistics that in most cases users don't change color of background (and other options) in a new layer?

I just want to make sure that we are not talking about your personal preferences and your personal workflow ;-)

Alexandre

Alexandre Prokoudine
2006-05-17 14:32:05 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay

On 5/17/06, Martin Nordholts wrote:

Having to use two hands instead of one is a dramatic loss of workflow IMHO.

What is the second hand doing then, if not being on keyboard?

I'm really curious, because when I'm using GIMP/Inkscape/Scribus, my left hand is _always_ on keyboard, mostly in the Ctrl/Shift/Alt area (try drawing a vertical gradient at 90 deg without using Ctrl) or switching between tools.

Alexandre

Alexandre Prokoudine
2006-05-17 14:35:02 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay

On 5/17/06, Martin Nordholts wrote:

(? my reply seems to have been lost, I will reply again)

Well no, I have no statistics :)

As I said though, we could gather some if needed. Maybe some admid could ask on the Users list
if they find it appropriate.

Probably yes, but from what I remember, Shift + Click works in several more parts of GIMP's UI. If so, changing it would break consistence.

Alexandre

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 14:41:04 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay

I think like this:
For maximum workflow, one should be able to do as many things simultaneously as possible, wouldn't you agree with that?

Then it follows that having to use two hands is less effective than using one hand. Exactly _what_ is being done by the other hand is not important, more important is that _it can do anything_ (Scratch yourself in the head, hold a paper, or just rest).

From: "Alexandre Prokoudine"
To: GIMPDev
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:32:05 +0400

On 5/17/06, Martin Nordholts wrote:

Having to use two hands instead of one is a dramatic loss of workflow IMHO.

What is the second hand doing then, if not being on keyboard?

I'm really curious, because when I'm using GIMP/Inkscape/Scribus, my left hand is _always_ on keyboard, mostly in the Ctrl/Shift/Alt area (try drawing a vertical gradient at 90 deg without using Ctrl) or switching between tools.

Alexandre

Toby Speight
2006-05-17 14:41:09 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay

0> In article ,
0> Simon Budig ("Simon") wrote:

Simon> Better have an undiscoverable workflow-optimization than an Simon> undiscoverable feature.

One way to make it discoverable is to display a hint in the New Layer dialog window. (This might be conditional on whether Tip of the Day is enabled, or might appear only the first time New Layer is used in each session). Anybody want to take this up?

A feature I quite like from XFig (10 years ago; don't know if it's still there) is the little window showing what the mouse buttons currently do.

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 14:44:24 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay

Probably yes, but from what I remember, Shift + Click works in several more parts of GIMP's UI. If so, changing it would break consistence.

I am not sure in what way? Yes, there are other commands that are altered by Shift. However, the logical relationship between Shift and non-Shift is (or at least should be) that the most common use of a certain button should be executed with non-Shift, and the other (less used) command with Shift.

If you agree on that, then this improves consistence.

__________________

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 14:46:16 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New

One way to make it discoverable is to display a hint in the New Layer dialog window. (This might be conditional on whether Tip of the Day is enabled, or might appear only the first time New Layer is used in each session). Anybody want to take this up?

Actually, there already is a hint. The tooltip states the holding Shift changes the result of a click. And as I said, using Layer -> New layer... (i.e. in the menu) should default (and is defaulting) to show the detailed dialog.

__________________

Alexandre Prokoudine
2006-05-17 14:52:08 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay

On 5/17/06, Martin Nordholts wrote:

I think like this:
For maximum workflow, one should be able to do as many things simultaneously as possible, wouldn't you agree with that?

What else can I do while creating a new layer except scratching my poor head and holding a paper? :)

Again, I would like consistent user interface. If GIMP uses Shift+Click for using last settings and bypass an extra dialog in several places, I want it to always work that way, throughout UI.

If you point is in bypassing all "extra" dialogs by default, then it is a subject to a usability study. I can't see how possibly we can decide changing what many people already got used to without studying user experience of at least part of them.

Alexandre

Simon Budig
2006-05-17 14:53:25 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' commanddefaultto 'New lay

Martin Nordholts (enselic@hotmail.com) wrote:

We earlier had it the other way around: Click would create the layers with the defaults, Shift-Click would show the dialog. We then switched it around again, because Shift-Clicking to get the dialog, made the dialog a pretty hidden feature. Most people would not even be aware that there is a dialog, that is pretty useful at times.

Ah, it was the other way around before, I see.

From previous discussions however, I concluded that GIMP is not inteded to be an app for newbies, but rather be effective to its faithful users.

I don't think that discoverability is about newbies vs. professionals.

Better have an undiscoverable workflow-optimization than an undiscoverable feature.

Note that the patch does not affect that when you use the Layer _menu_ instead of the shortcut button in the Layer window, the dialog shows as default. I find this quite logical too, that the "shortcut" command should be fast, and the "slower" menu command should offer more details.

Actually it would be interesting to review the usage of buttons in the GIMP, maybe it would be an interesting topic for an usability study. Then we could try to make this consistent all across the GIMP.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if some usability engineer would tell us, that buttons usually ask for an immediate action to the image (or whatever is supposed to manipulated by the button) and that dialogs in that case are not that usable. But I'd like to argue about this in a more global scope. Discussing this for a specific button is not that useful: Arguments get over-emphasized (as if this were the most important button in the GIMP) and we lose the big picture.

If you know about the Shift-Click it basically is not more or less convenient than a simple click on the button. Hence I don't see how switching this around again would drastically improve the workflow.

Having to use two hands instead of one is a dramatic loss of workflow IMHO.

Uh, please back that up.

If you would want _one_ new layer per image, than this doesn't matter. However, for more serious work where creating many layers often, having to use the left hand for shift is not effective I think.

Why? I don't buy this.

Bye, Simon

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 15:01:28 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay

What else can I do while creating a new layer except scratching my poor head and holding a paper? :)

Using keycommands for instance? A basic example: You want to create a new layer and after that select tha gradient tool.

With my suggestion: One click and press 'L'
or
Ctrl + Shift + 'N', 'L' (Which btw makes the right hand free to do whatever it wants)

Without:
Shift + Click, 'L'

It is important that you don't focus on a single 'New layer' occurance, but the sum of _many_ saved clicks/keypreses.

Again, I would like consistent user interface. If GIMP uses Shift+Click for using last settings and bypass an extra dialog in several places, I want it to always work that way, throughout UI.

If you point is in bypassing all "extra" dialogs by default, then it is a subject to a usability study. I can't see how possibly we can decide changing what many people already got used to without studying user experience of at least part of them.

I understand your point. Our different conclusions is based upon our different definitions of 'consistency'. I think that the UI should be consistend in the effective workflow sense, while you want it to be consistent in a structured way. It is a entire discussion in itself which definition to use, so I suggest (:D) that a separate thread is created if you find it neccesary.

__________________

Simon Budig
2006-05-17 15:06:29 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay

Martin Nordholts (enselic@hotmail.com) wrote:

Probably yes, but from what I remember, Shift + Click works in several more parts of GIMP's UI. If so, changing it would break consistence.

I am not sure in what way? Yes, there are other commands that are altered by Shift. However, the logical relationship between Shift and non-Shift is (or at least should be) that the most common use of a certain button should be executed with non-Shift, and the other (less used) command with Shift.

If you agree on that, then this improves consistence.

I don't agree. First, determining what the "most common use" of a button is, probably is subjective at all. And even if we could determine this in an unambigous way we'd end up basically with a list: This button shows a dialog, this button does not. Shift toggles this. The user would have to learn the behaviour of all the buttons by heart, since there is no simple rule to describe the behaviour all over the application. I wouldn't call that situation consistent (Note that I don't claim that the current behaviour is consistent).

Bye, Simon

Alexandre Prokoudine
2006-05-17 15:07:38 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay

On 5/17/06, Martin Nordholts wrote:

With my suggestion:
One click and press 'L'
or
Ctrl + Shift + 'N', 'L' (Which btw makes the right hand free to do whatever it wants)

It doesn't free the right hand :)

I understand your point. Our different conclusions is based upon our different definitions of 'consistency'. I think that the UI should be consistend in the effective workflow sense, while you want it to be consistent in a structured way.

I don't buy this distinguishing of "consistencies", sorry.

2everyone else: what is the best way to start a usability study fro GIMP?

Alexandre

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 15:15:26 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay

Ah, it was the other way around before, I see.

From previous discussions however, I concluded that GIMP is not inteded

to

be an app for newbies, but rather be effective to its faithful users.

I don't think that discoverability is about newbies vs. professionals.

I am assuming you mean 'image editing newbies' and 'image editing professionals'.

By 'newbie' I mean new to the GIMP interface. By 'faithful user', I meant someone that knows GIMP and what it is capable of. As I said, I have concluded, based on previous discussions, that GIMP is not aimed towards newbies. Thus, the 'indiscoverability for GIMP newbies'-argument falls.

If you know about the Shift-Click it basically is not more or less convenient than a simple click on the button. Hence I don't see how switching this around again would drastically improve the workflow.

Having to use two hands instead of one is a dramatic loss of workflow

IMHO.

Uh, please back that up.

Refer to my reply to Alexandre:
https://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/gimp-developer/2006-May/015751.html

If you would want _one_ new layer per image, than this doesn't matter. However, for more serious work where creating many layers often, having

to

use the left hand for shift is not effective I think.

Why?

Why it makes a difference if you have to use Shift many times?

Well, let's say it takes 0.3 secs longer to Shift click than just to click, you save 0.3 secs for one click, but 30 seconds if you do 100 clicks.

I probably misunderstood the 'why' though...

__________________

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 15:20:08 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

With my suggestion:
One click and press 'L'
or
Ctrl + Shift + 'N', 'L' (Which btw makes the right hand free to do whatever
it wants)

It doesn't free the right hand :)

If you want to be picky, then no, the right hand is not free. I meant that the mouse cursor can do whatever it wants.

I understand your point. Our different conclusions is based upon our different definitions of 'consistency'. I think that the UI should be consistend in the effective workflow sense, while you want it to be consistent in a structured way.

I don't buy this distinguishing of "consistencies", sorry.

I'd appreciate if you told me why instead of just 'I don't agree with you'.

__________________

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 15:22:56 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

Probably yes, but from what I remember, Shift + Click works in several more parts of GIMP's UI. If so, changing it would break consistence.

I am not sure in what way? Yes, there are other commands that are

altered

by Shift. However, the logical relationship between Shift and non-Shift

is

(or at least should be) that the most common use of a certain button

should

be executed with non-Shift, and the other (less used) command with

Shift.

If you agree on that, then this improves consistence.

I don't agree. First, determining what the "most common use" of a button is, probably is subjective at all. And even if we could determine this in an unambigous way we'd end up basically with a list: This button shows a dialog, this button does not. Shift toggles this. The user would have to learn the behaviour of all the buttons by heart, since there is no simple rule to describe the behaviour all over the application.

I strongly doubt that any regular user had any idea that that was the logical connection between a Shift and a non-Shift click. I had no idea.

As I said, I always figured GIMP wants to be _effective_ to work with rather than logical. I mean there are a lot of inconsistences in the UI, however, they make it _effective_ to work with GIMP.

__________________

Alexandre Prokoudine
2006-05-17 15:32:56 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

On 5/17/06, Martin Nordholts wrote:

I understand your point. Our different conclusions is based upon our different definitions of 'consistency'. I think that the UI should be consistend in the effective workflow sense, while you want it to be consistent in a structured way.

I don't buy this distinguishing of "consistencies", sorry.

I'd appreciate if you told me why instead of just 'I don't agree with you'.

Because in fact you are not talking about effective workflow over structure really.

Have a look at most recent Inkscape or read http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/ReleaseNotes. Calligraphic pen and Pen tool now use same modifiers other tools use. This is both "in the sense of effective workflow" and "in the structured sense", because it gives consistent experience throughout UI that leads to effective workflow. Now you might understand why I didn't buy that distinguishing.

Alexandre

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 15:42:37 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

Have a look at most recent Inkscape or read http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/ReleaseNotes. Calligraphic pen and Pen tool now use same modifiers other tools use. This is both "in the sense of effective workflow" and "in the structured sense", because it gives consistent experience throughout UI that leads to effective workflow. Now you might understand why I didn't buy that distinguishing.

Thanks :)

I think there is an important difference here though, and that is that tools (the different pens etc) are a much stronger logical collection than buttons (which can do completely different things depending on context). I mean a tool is something that effects the image, so it is much more logical to keep the modifiers concistent. If your argument is applied to GIMP, that would mean you want all buttons to have a Shift alternative.

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Simon Budig
2006-05-17 15:48:57 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

Martin Nordholts (enselic@hotmail.com) wrote:

If you agree on that, then this improves consistence.

I don't agree. First, determining what the "most common use" of a button is, probably is subjective at all. And even if we could determine this in an unambigous way we'd end up basically with a list: This button shows a dialog, this button does not. Shift toggles this. The user would have to learn the behaviour of all the buttons by heart, since there is no simple rule to describe the behaviour all over the application.

I strongly doubt that any regular user had any idea that that was the logical connection between a Shift and a non-Shift click. I had no idea.

I did state explicitely that I don't claim that GIMP is consistent at the moment. There is no doubt that the current situation can be improved. It however IMHO cannot be improved by randomly changing the behaviour of individual buttons.

As I said, I always figured GIMP wants to be _effective_ to work with rather than logical. I mean there are a lot of inconsistences in the UI, however, they make it _effective_ to work with GIMP.

So to use GIMP effectively you have to go through a list of dozends of buttons and memorize what they do when clicking and what they do when shift-clicking?

My idea of consistency is: The user looks at a button and can predict (maybe after learning one or two rules) what the button will do when it gets clicked, and what it will do when it gets shift-clicked. Even when he encounters this particular button for the first time.

Your approach involves a lot of guesswork: We have to make an educated guess, what is the more frequent usage of each of the dozends of buttons. Each user has to guess what we guessed. And I bet that there are users out there who don't agree with our guesses. How do we defend our guesses?

To exaggerate your approach: Wouldn't it be the most usable GIMP if we keep counters for the button presses? And if it turns out that a user uses SHIFT-Click more than a simple click, shouldn't we just switch the behaviour of the button on the fly? Maybe we should also reorder the buttons according to the button click count.

According to your arguments this would result in the most usable GIMP ever, because we react to the individual usage pattern of each user. But it basically will result in a Chaos, where it is unpredictable what a specific button will do, even where it will be located. It is impossible to document.

I firmly believe that simple consistency rules are important for usability. And that saving 0.3 seconds per new-layer (assuming for 0.5 seconds, that your made-up number resembles reality) or 30 seconds per 100 new layers is not as important as a goal.

Conclusion: We definitely can improve the GIMP, but we need a coordinated approach. A usability study would help here.

Bye, Simon

Michael Natterer
2006-05-17 15:54:31 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 15:22 +0200, Martin Nordholts wrote:

Probably yes, but from what I remember, Shift + Click works in several more parts of GIMP's UI. If so, changing it would break consistence.

I am not sure in what way? Yes, there are other commands that are

altered

by Shift. However, the logical relationship between Shift and non-Shift

is

(or at least should be) that the most common use of a certain button

should

be executed with non-Shift, and the other (less used) command with

Shift.

If you agree on that, then this improves consistence.

I don't agree. First, determining what the "most common use" of a button is, probably is subjective at all. And even if we could determine this in an unambigous way we'd end up basically with a list: This button shows a dialog, this button does not. Shift toggles this. The user would have to learn the behaviour of all the buttons by heart, since there is no simple rule to describe the behaviour all over the application.

I strongly doubt that any regular user had any idea that that was the logical connection between a Shift and a non-Shift click. I had no idea.

As I said, I always figured GIMP wants to be _effective_ to work with rather than logical. I mean there are a lot of inconsistences in the UI, however, they make it _effective_ to work with GIMP.

What are these "lot of inconsistencies"?

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 15:57:58 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

Your approach involves a lot of guesswork: We have to make an educated guess, what is the more frequent usage of each of the dozends of buttons. Each user has to guess what we guessed. And I bet that there are users out there who don't agree with our guesses. How do we defend our guesses?

First of all we are not talking about extremly many Shift-clickable buttons...

They don't have to guess, they can either read (from the a tooltip) or just try.
Using the word 'guessing' implies that the behavior of a buttons changes each time you run GIMP.

To exaggerate your approach: Wouldn't it be the most usable GIMP if we keep counters for the button presses? And if it turns out that a user uses SHIFT-Click more than a simple click, shouldn't we just switch the behaviour of the button on the fly? Maybe we should also reorder the buttons according to the button click count.

According to your arguments this would result in the most usable GIMP ever, because we react to the individual usage pattern of each user. But it basically will result in a Chaos, where it is unpredictable what a specific button will do, even where it will be located. It is impossible to document.

That sure is exagerating.

For this particular button however, I think we are not even talking about a majority, but rahter as good as _all_ users.

If you ask yourselves, how often do I need to adjust the settings of a layer, and how often do I just click OK on the dialog, what is your answer?

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Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 16:05:22 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

What are these "lot of inconsistencies"?

I'm sorry, lot is probably a too strong word. Lookup bugzilla entires though, and you'll find that not a negligible amount of them can be considered as inconsistency fixes/enhancements.

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Simon Budig
2006-05-17 16:19:27 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

Martin Nordholts (enselic@hotmail.com) wrote:

To exaggerate your approach: Wouldn't it be the most usable GIMP if we keep counters for the button presses? And if it turns out that a user uses SHIFT-Click more than a simple click, shouldn't we just switch the behaviour of the button on the fly? Maybe we should also reorder the buttons according to the button click count.

According to your arguments this would result in the most usable GIMP ever, because we react to the individual usage pattern of each user. But it basically will result in a Chaos, where it is unpredictable what a specific button will do, even where it will be located. It is impossible to document.

That sure is exagerating.

Sometimes it is necessary to exaggerate to make a specific point clear.

For this particular button however, I think we are not even talking about a majority, but rahter as good as _all_ users.

Yes. You think. And you have no way to back that up.

I for myself *do* use the dialog occasionally, mainly for creating new white layers.

If you ask yourselves, how often do I need to adjust the settings of a layer, and how often do I just click OK on the dialog, what is your answer?

I am not sure you are trying to understand what I write. If you've read my mails you'd understand that I don't see a point in arguing about this single individual button. I'll readily agree that you have a point when looking at this specific button in an isolated manner. Heck, I even was involved into making this button behave in this way before we reverted it back to its current behaviour. But that is not my point.

My point is that we need to look at the big picture. The New-Channel and New-Path button behave the same way. In a lot of other dockable dialogs there are "New"-Buttons as well. For the reasons stated earlier I want a consistent behaviour. This is not the case currently, but your change won't make it more consistent at all. We need to analyze these things and change them in an coordinated manner. Read: Usability-Study or at least a description of the current situation and then try to improve that.

If you don't adress the big picture in your future mails I don't see much point in a further discussion.

Bye, Simon

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 16:31:51 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Makethe'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

Yes. You think. And you have no way to back that up.

It feels good knowing that you understand that this is what I think, and that I never claimed that I know this.

I for myself *do* use the dialog occasionally, mainly for creating new white layers.

I'm sure a lot of people _occasionally_ use the dialog, but as I said, I think that _all_ users (including you) most often just clicks OK in the dialog (or Shift-clicks)

I'll readily agree that you have a point when looking at this specific button in an isolated manner. Heck, I even was involved into making this button behave in this way before we reverted it back to its current behaviour.

Thank you!

My point is that we need to look at the big picture. The New-Channel and New-Path button behave the same way. In a lot of other dockable dialogs there are "New"-Buttons as well. For the reasons stated earlier I want a consistent behaviour. This is not the case currently, but your change won't make it more consistent at all. We need to analyze these things and change them in an coordinated manner. Read: Usability-Study or at least a description of the current situation and then try to improve that.

I understood your point, I was mainly concerned over that seemingly noone understood or agreed with my arguments.

I totally buy your consistency argument, but I also weight it with the improved workflow in the other. My view is that changing this would improve workflow more than it breaks it, i.e. it is more common to create a New layer without changing its properties, than don't knowing what a Shift-click and a normal click will do for a specific button. Learning which button does what when it gets Shift-clicked is a finite job, while creating new layers is an non-finite job.

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Alan Horkan
2006-05-17 16:31:57 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay

On Wed, 17 May 2006, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:52:08 +0400 From: Alexandre Prokoudine
To: GIMPDev
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto 'New lay

On 5/17/06, Martin Nordholts wrote:

I think like this:
For maximum workflow, one should be able to do as many things simultaneously as possible, wouldn't you agree with that?

What else can I do while creating a new layer except scratching my poor head and holding a paper? :)

Again, I would like consistent user interface. If GIMP uses Shift+Click for using last settings and bypass an extra dialog in several places, I want it to always work that way, throughout UI.

It works for Layers, Channels, and Paths. Good consistency.

Doesn't seem to work for the Templates dialog. Doesn't work for brushes or gradients but in that case it is more like Edit gradient than New gradient so it probably isn't applicable.

Cannot think of other places to test.

If you point is in bypassing all "extra" dialogs by default, then it is a subject to a usability study. I can't see how possibly we can

I couldn't agree more with the point Simon made about discoverability and the workflow optimisation should take second place in this situation, especially since this was all based on trial and error and the developers came to this decision the hard way.

decide changing what many people already got used to without studying user experience of at least part of them.

It is a tough burden to require usability testing to prove every suggested change but in this there effectively has been a substantial body of testing already.

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 16:44:36 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer'commanddefaultto'New lay

I couldn't agree more with the point Simon made about discoverability and the workflow optimisation should take second place in this situation,

But isn't discoverability *part* of the workflow? I mean yes, it would be tricker to find the dialog, and therefore affect workflow in a negative way. But once you find it, you will have better workflow *each time* you create a new layer. Since learning that there exists a dialog is made once, while creating layers is done indefinitly, changing the bahavior is a gain seen from a workflow perspective.

It is a tough burden to require usability testing to prove every suggested change but in this there effectively has been a substantial body of testing already.

I'm sorry but I quite new to these lists, but what substanitial testing are you refering to?

__________________

saulgoode@brickfilms.com
2006-05-17 19:24:37 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command default to 'New layer with last values'

Martin,

Have you considered assigning the "new layer" function to a key? I have assigned my apostrophe to do just that and, if the need arose, I am quite confident that I could request 100 new layers faster than my computer could generate them; all without even leaving the image window.

Martin Nordholts
2006-05-17 19:32:54 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New lay

Actually I hadn't, but that was a good idea!

It is great that it is possible, but my hope is that creating a new layer would be hardcoded as easy instead of putting the responsibility on the end user to *make* it easy.

I am more or less awaiting comments from a 'high up' person on this subject.

From: saulgoode@brickfilms.com
To: gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU Subject: [Gimp-developer] Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command defaultto 'New layer with last values' Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:24:37 -0700

Martin,

Have you considered assigning the "new layer" function to a key? I have assigned
my apostrophe to do just that and, if the need arose, I am quite confident that
I could request 100 new layers faster than my computer could generate them; all
without even leaving the image window.

Roel Schroeven
2006-05-17 23:55:14 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the'Newlayer'commanddefaultto'New lay

Martin Nordholts schreef:

For this particular button however, I think we are not even talking about a majority, but rahter as good as _all_ users.

If you ask yourselves, how often do I need to adjust the settings of a layer, and how often do I just click OK on the dialog, what is your answer?

FWIW, I think this is one thing (in fact the only thing, I guess) that Microsoft Visual SourceSafe got right. Many functions show a dialog box with options when you first use it. The dialog box has a checkbox "From now only show this dialog if Shift is pressed" (or something to that effect; I don't remember exactly). If you check the checkbox, that specific function from then on doesn't display the dialog anymore; it just uses the default (or current) option values.

If you want to change the options, you just press shift while selecting the function. I believe there's also some preferences menu to reset the shift-behavior.

Works pretty good, I think.

Jason Park
2006-05-19 05:32:13 UTC (almost 18 years ago)

Suggestion: Make the 'New layer' command default to 'New layer with last values'

I agree with the suggestion. The 'New Layer' button on the Layers Dock should represent a new layer with the last values, then have the dialog , if wanted, with a SHIFT-CLICK. The longer way can stay the same (on the top window: Layers- New Layer - Menu).

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