On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, William Skaggs wrote:

If "Adjustable" is checked, then the shape of the rectangle can be modified after it has been drawn, by moving the corners in the same way that works for the crop tool. Once it is satisfactory, clicking inside the rectangle converts it into a selection. Clicking outside the rectangle cancels the tool.

Probably I have to try it to give a definite answer as to how usable this solution is, but reading about it it seems that it would be better if the rectangle would convert to a selection as soon as you click anywhere outside the controls of it, or if you use a modifier (ctrl-shift) with the click (even if you click on a control point), or if you change tools. That way all people get to (mostly) keep their current working habits and also use the new functionality if they need to. (btw, for keyboard navigation it seems logical to me to use the arrow keys for resizing and shift + arrow keys for movement)

PS. I can't wait to try out your new tool :)

Hi,

"William Skaggs" writes:

I have been working on a new rectangle-select tool to meet some of the deficiencies of the existing one, and would like to commit what I have to cvs if it is okay.

Please don't commit this before we have finished this discussion (that we should have had before you wrote the first line of code).

Here is an overview of what I have currently:

The "New Rect Select" is implemented as a separate tool, which does not conflict with the existing rect-select tool and would not replace it until everybody is satisfied with it. The source code is based on the crop tool, and in many ways resembles it, although there are important differences.

The crop tool code is the most broken piece of code in that directory. What we really need is not another Crop tool but an abstract rectangle tool that the crop tool, text tool and perhaps even the rect-select tool can be derived from.

The tool options have two new entries, toggles for "Adjustable" and "Show dialog".

If "Adjustable" is checked, then the shape of the rectangle can be modified after it has been drawn, by moving the corners in the same way that works for the crop tool. Once it is satisfactory, clicking inside the rectangle converts it into a selection. Clicking outside the rectangle cancels the tool.

If "Adjustable" is not checked, then the rectangle is converted to a selection as soon as the mouse button is released. (That is, it behaves like the existing rect-select.)

That sounds akward. Why would I have to convert a selection to a selection? This should be hidden from the user.

If "Show dialog" is checked, then a dialog closely resembling the crop tool dialog is shown whenever the tool is working, allowing values to be entered using the keyboard, and also containing buttons labeled "From selection" and "Auto shrink". (The "From selection" button creates a rectangle to fit the bounds of the existing selection.)

This is also akward. The crop tool shouldn't have a dialog, nor should we add one to a possible new rectangle tool. The current rect-select tool shows how the tool-options can be used for this.

As always, everything is open to change, and nothing is written in stone, and all feedback is welcome.

I will try to sit down later today and write up a completely different proposal since I don't like your's at all.

Sven

On 20.01.2005, at 22:07, Sven Neumann wrote:

Please don't commit this before we have finished this discussion (that we should have had before you wrote the first line of code).

Typically a proof of concept implementation is more than welcome, so your attitude is hardly understandable.

That sounds akward. Why would I have to convert a selection to a selection? This should be hidden from the user.

A generic way to manipulate active selections would certainly be preferable so that arbitrary shaped selections can be moved and (re-)sized by any amount in either directon instead of just manipulated by boolean operations with new selections or grown/shrunk.

This is also akward. The crop tool shouldn't have a dialog, nor should we add one to a possible new rectangle tool. The current rect-select tool shows how the tool-options can be used for this.

However, as long as such a generic method does not exist, I'd rather have a well-known interface like the one of the crop tool instead of the current behaviour. The current selection tools are annoying enough to be barely of any use without rulers for anything larger than a 100x100 pixel icon with some heavy magnification.

As always, everything is open to change, and nothing is written in stone, and all feedback is welcome.

I will try to sit down later today and write up a completely different proposal since I don't like your's at all.

I for one prefer Bills' approach much to what we have now; but lets see what you'll come up with.

Servus, Daniel

Hi,

Daniel Egger writes:

I for one prefer Bills' approach much to what we have now; but lets see what you'll come up with.

I didn't say it's worse than the current approach but it completely contradicts all the work that has gone into GIMP in order to pave the way for better selection tools. I don't want to see that work being wasted and since we are at the very beginning of a development cycle, we don't need to go for quick-and-dirty solutions.

Sven

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:10:18 +0100, Daniel Egger wrote:

On 20.01.2005, at 22:07, Sven Neumann wrote:

That sounds akward. Why would I have to convert a selection to a selection? This should be hidden from the user.

A generic way to manipulate active selections would certainly be preferable so that arbitrary shaped selections can be moved and (re-)sized by any amount in either directon instead of just manipulated by boolean operations with new selections or grown/shrunk.

Several proposals for the selection tools have already been discussed in 2002. I like the idea of being able to modify the current shape freely until it is "confirmed" in some way. This could be done for the rectangle and ellipse (and rounded rectangle if we ever add this) by having a generic way to adjust the bounding box of the selection. After the shape is applied/confirmed, it could be combined with others using the usual boolean operations. See this interesting bug report for more details: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91934

A similar discussion took place for the crop tool: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91846

This is also akward. The crop tool shouldn't have a dialog, nor should we add one to a possible new rectangle tool. The current rect-select tool shows how the tool-options can be used for this.

However, as long as such a generic method does not exist, I'd rather have a well-known interface like the one of the crop tool instead of the current behaviour. The current selection tools are annoying enough to be barely of any use without rulers for anything larger than a 100x100 pixel icon with some heavy magnification.

I agree with Sven here: we should get rid of all pop-up dialogs for the tools. If additional input such as dimensions or aspect ratio is required for a tool, then this should be part of the tool options instead of having a separate window which often gets in the way and can steal the input focus, etc. See also bug #85579.

As always, everything is open to change, and nothing is written in stone, and all feedback is welcome.

I will try to sit down later today and write up a completely different proposal since I don't like your's at all.

I for one prefer Bills' approach much to what we have now; but lets see what you'll come up with.

I also think that Bill's approach is interesting, but I would prefer a generic concept that can be applied to all selection tools and could also be used to improve the crop tool. I hope that Sven will come up with a good proposal. In the meantime I recommend that you have a look at bug #91934 (linked above), especially comment #5 from Simon.

-Raphaël

From: "William Skaggs"

I have been working on a new rectangle-select tool to meet some of the deficiencies of the existing one

Thank you!

1.
We may have any number of selection tools. If this selection tool does not fit perfectly to somebody's working habits, then we will write two slightly different variants of this tool. (We also should have configurable tool palettes and menues if we start having large number of specialized tools.)

So, please, Sven & all, don't overrun somebody's suggestion unless absolutely necessary.

2.

If "Adjustable" is checked, then the shape of the rectangle can be modified after it has been drawn, by moving the corners in the same way that works for the crop tool.

Make it also adjustable by moving the edges. Otherwise with large images, it becomes impossible to select areas precisely: in a zoomed view, one may see only the edge of the rectangle.
3.

Once it is satisfactory,
clicking inside the rectangle converts it into a selection. Clicking outside the rectangle cancels the tool.

A while ago I proposed that the selection is created each time the grab&drag is released. When one starts re-adjusting the rectangle, the previously created selection is deleted.

That means that "quitting" the tool can be done by switching to another tool or by applying an effect. And that one does have one-to-one match between the rect and the selection, in realtime. (One could use that kind of interactively realtime selection in future GIMP version.)

Only cancel operation must be implemented.

4.

If "Adjustable" is not checked, then the rectangle is converted to a selection as soon as the mouse button is released. (That is, it behaves like the existing rect-select.)

That is bad. But also unnecessary if you implement the tool as described above.

BTW, who can do selections with non-adjustable tool? In existing rect tool, it is pain to start the selection from scratch if the selection is not good in the first place. Try it also with large images, impossible.

5.

If "Show dialog" is checked, then a dialog closely resembling the crop tool dialog is shown whenever the tool is working, allowing

As said, if you want this dialog, an another version can be written for us. Please write the tool you like, and then we have to modify your tool to fit to our needs. One tool for you, another tool for us.

OK. It is just one new tool to the set. You write it your own way. We must accept it because it sounds like a good tool already. Whiners can write their own tools. Remember, we accepted the existing braindead rect tool years ago. Nothing can be worse.

Juhana

On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 08:13:27AM +0200, Juhana Sadeharju wrote:

From: "William Skaggs"

I have been working on a new rectangle-select tool to meet some of the deficiencies of the existing one

Thank you!

1.
We may have any number of selection tools. If this selection tool does not fit perfectly to somebody's working habits, then we will write two slightly different variants of this tool. (We also should have configurable tool palettes and menues if we start having large number of specialized tools.)

So, please, Sven & all, don't overrun somebody's suggestion unless absolutely necessary.

selections can easily be saved as paths.

all of this can be done with layers and layer masks.

there is a point where people who are used to other apps would do well to familiarize themselves with the good things that TheGIMP has always been able to do.

one look at the art work that was made with gimps 1.0 and before should, in my humble opinion, cause people new to this application to say they are sorry and perhaps rethink how they work.

2.

If "Adjustable" is checked, then the shape of the rectangle can be modified after it has been drawn, by moving the corners in the same way that works for the crop tool.

there is nothing more adjustable than a layer that you make and use as a mask. it is easier on your computer and everything saves with less space being taken in the file.

this selection stuff is all how other apps work. the fact that gimp does more with selections now was a war with these other applications.

Make it also adjustable by moving the edges. Otherwise with large images, it becomes impossible to select areas precisely: in a zoomed view, one may see only the edge of the rectangle.

once again, use the guides and make a layer to use as a mask.

bill is working on gimp documentation and exif stuff and a whole list of other things as well.

if really crazy abuse/use/overuse of selections is what you need for your work, perhaps photoshop still needs your money. in fact, it probably does.

3.

Once it is satisfactory,
clicking inside the rectangle converts it into a selection. Clicking outside the rectangle cancels the tool.

that is because use of selections for this work is insane and not very well thought out.

please try to do all of this logically with layers.

A while ago I proposed that the selection is created each time the grab&drag is released. When one starts re-adjusting the rectangle, the previously created selection is deleted.

i propose that you review the information about handling layers and layer masks.

That means that "quitting" the tool can be done by switching to another tool or by applying an effect. And that one does have one-to-one match between the rect and the selection, in realtime. (One could use that kind of interactively realtime selection in future GIMP version.)

better to work independent of tools.

if you must have all this selection stuff, by all means, play with the selection to path opportunities that are already there and see if this doesnt help with most of what you "need" here.

Only cancel operation must be implemented.

4.

If "Adjustable" is not checked, then the rectangle is converted to a selection as soon as the mouse button is released. (That is, it behaves like the existing rect-select.)

saving your selection wishes as a layer and using it as a mask should do all of this.

That is bad. But also unnecessary if you implement the tool as described above.

BTW, who can do selections with non-adjustable tool? In existing rect tool, it is pain to start the selection from scratch if the selection is not good in the first place. Try it also with large images, impossible.

try working with the layers. to me this is all cruft being introduced for no good reason.

5.

If "Show dialog" is checked, then a dialog closely resembling the crop tool dialog is shown whenever the tool is working, allowing

As said, if you want this dialog, an another version can be written for us. Please write the tool you like, and then we have to modify your tool to fit to our needs. One tool for you, another tool for us.

get cracking. i suggest calling it potatoshop.

OK. It is just one new tool to the set. You write it your own way. We must accept it because it sounds like a good tool already. Whiners can write their own tools. Remember, we accepted the existing braindead rect tool years ago. Nothing can be worse.

i think photoshop actually needs you to buy their products.

developing gimp is not going to be fun if others realize, as i have, that this war has been won.

instead of destroying gimp with cruft -- give the bad guys some money so we have someone to fight still.

if you like this application, you could learn how to use it.

thanks, carol

you know, i was thinking about it ....

i suggested that you call your version potatoshop. i like potatoes, so please do not do this.

perhaps "protowshop" is better.

carol

Hi,

On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 08:13:27AM +0200, Juhana Sadeharju wrote:

First: I'd like to have the new tool!

Make edges moveable! In my opinion it is a must. One often cannot see the corners (e.g. when zooming into an image to get a precise selection).

4.

If "Adjustable" is not checked, then the rectangle is converted to a selection as soon as the mouse button is released. (That is, it behaves like the existing rect-select.)

That is bad. But also unnecessary if you implement the tool as described above.

BTW, who can do selections with non-adjustable tool? In existing rect tool, it is pain to start the selection from scratch if the selection is not good in the first place. Try it also with large images, impossible.

If I want to select a precise area, I usually use guides first, then do the selection. This is very cumbersome (and you end up with lots of guides).

Bye, Tino.

Hi there,

On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 11:06:21PM -0800, Carol Spears wrote:

1.
We may have any number of selection tools. If this selection tool does not fit perfectly to somebody's working habits, then we will write two slightly different variants of this tool. (We also should have configurable tool palettes and menues if we start having large number of specialized tools.)

So, please, Sven & all, don't overrun somebody's suggestion unless absolutely necessary.

selections can easily be saved as paths.

Agreed. But it's cumbersome. The workflow would look like this: Select approximate region, convert to path, (probably give path a sensible name) use path tool to edit path (which is complicated if I want a precise rectangle), convert to selection, apply filter / whatever.

Using the described rect select tool, it would work like this: Select approximate area, fine-tune (probably zooming in and out as required), ready.

there is a point where people who are used to other apps would do well to familiarize themselves with the good things that TheGIMP has always been able to do.

Agreed.

one look at the art work that was made with gimps 1.0 and before should, in my humble opinion, cause people new to this application to say they are sorry and perhaps rethink how they work.

In my opinion, this is not an argument. Just because people were able to produce good stuff with The GIMP 1.0, one cannot conclude that GIMP 1.0 was perfect. There are a lot of examples where good work is created with bad (or at least improvable) tools.

2.

If "Adjustable" is checked, then the shape of the rectangle can be modified after it has been drawn, by moving the corners in the same way that works for the crop tool.

there is nothing more adjustable than a layer that you make and use as a mask. it is easier on your computer and everything saves with less space being taken in the file.

We're not talking about persistent stuff here. We're talking about a short-time selection operation. The result of the operation will be a selection. I don't want to have a layer here, I just want to select some rectangular area (precisely), then operate on it, then forget it.

Bye, Tino.

From: Carol Spears

there is nothing more adjustable than a layer that you make and use as a mask. it is easier on your computer and everything saves with less space being taken in the file.

You have misunderstood what about we are writing!!!!!

We are not writing about the selections (which are masks) but we are writing about the **tools** used to make the selections.

Yes, GIMP art are nice, but it does not make the impossible possible. This extra tool makes the impossible possible. The new tool is needed (I have waited for 8 years!!).

Regards, Juhana

Hmmm.. people should start working on the tool plugin system so that some of us may have very specialized tools if we want to have them. I don't make art with GIMP and so I have not used to the work flow most artists use. I have tried to use the guides in the selection making but the guides are unconvenient to use.

Juhana

Hi,

"William Skaggs" writes:

I have been working on a new rectangle-select tool to meet some of the deficiencies of the existing one, and would like to commit what I have to cvs if it is okay.

Since I haven't got around to write up how I think the next-generation selection tools should work, it will probably be best if you commit your changes and we discuss them based on the code in CVS.

Sven