If downloading the proper installation file for your system is tiring your mind, it is probably not the kind of mind that can handle learning GIMP.

Maybe hire a designer instead?

PS- Better get used to geeks, we make everything your sleepy brain loves in life.
On 5 May 2015 14:12, "Farkas Flórián" wrote:

Jesus, wtf, why don't you guys just provide a single freaking download link insteadof tiring my mind with three pages of technical bs about how to download gimp with20 mirrors and ftp servers and a torrent file.Stop being such freaking geeks, I'm looking for a program to use and don't want to spend more than 3 seconds downloading it. Get a fucking life seriously and don't tire me and normal users with your technical geek bullshit,or otherwise just don't publish this and keep it to yourselves.Thank you

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On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM, C R wrote:

If downloading the proper installation file for your system is tiring your mind, it is probably not the kind of mind that can handle learning GIMP.

This would be the wrong kind of reply :)

I would be the first to acknowledge that our downloads page isn't fun. However I'm looking at it right now fro a Windows machine and I see a huge download link at the top of the page, so I have no idea why Farkas would even have to go as far as the list of mirrors.

Alex

It's just... the entitlement, man, the entitlement. Lol. My apologies for the wrong reply. I will attempt more diplomacy in the future.

On Tue, 5 May 2015 17:23 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM, C R wrote:

If downloading the proper installation file for your system is tiring

your

mind, it is probably not the kind of mind that can handle learning GIMP.

This would be the wrong kind of reply :)

I would be the first to acknowledge that our downloads page isn't fun. However I'm looking at it right now fro a Windows machine and I see a huge download link at the top of the page, so I have no idea why Farkas would even have to go as far as the list of mirrors.

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On 2015-05-05 12:23, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

I would be the first to acknowledge that our downloads page isn't fun. However I'm looking at it right now fro a Windows machine and I see a huge download link at the top of the page, so I have no idea why Farkas would even have to go as far as the list of mirrors.

The big download button on the top of the main page just takes you to the downloads page. Buried a long way down the page is a link to a development version of GIMP for Windows. The page needs a link to the site that has the released versions of GIMP for Windows.

Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that 
distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why 
we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include  |             --Chris Hardwick

On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Kevin wrote:

our downloads page isn't fun. However I'm looking at it right now and I see a huge download link at the top of the page

The big download button on the top of the main page

I wasn't talking about the main page.

Buried a long way down the page is a link to a development version of GIMP for Windows.

I don't think that it's what was meant to be downloaded in this case. However I do share your sentiment.

Alex

On 05/06/2015 10:37 PM, Kevin wrote:

On 2015-05-05 12:23, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

I would be the first to acknowledge that our downloads page isn't fun. However I'm looking at it right now fro a Windows machine and I see a huge download link at the top of the page, so I have no idea why Farkas would even have to go as far as the list of mirrors.

The big download button on the top of the main page just takes you to the downloads page. Buried a long way down the page is a link to a development version of GIMP for Windows. The page needs a link to the site that has the released versions of GIMP for Windows.

It takes you to the downloads page, adjusted to the platform you are using.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

The first link in the download section for windows downloads a torrent link file, which users may not be familiar with. The second link direct-downloads the Windows install file from download.gimp.org

Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on download.gimp.org? If not, maybe we should offer up the direct download executable first to avoid confusion (and ranting and name-calling, apparently, lol).

Generally I find most sites make dedicated button-looking graphics for various kinds of downloads.
I would be happy to make some up to disambiguate the downloading links, for our less torrent-savvy users.

Thoughts?

On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/06/2015 10:37 PM, Kevin wrote:

On 2015-05-05 12:23, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

I would be the first to acknowledge that our downloads page isn't fun. However I'm looking at it right now fro a Windows machine and I see a huge download link at the top of the page, so I have no idea why Farkas would even have to go as far as the list of mirrors.

The big download button on the top of the main page just takes you to the downloads page. Buried a long way down the page is a link to a development version of GIMP for Windows. The page needs a link to the site that has the released versions of GIMP for Windows.

It takes you to the downloads page, adjusted to the platform you are using.

-- Regards,
Michael
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On 05/07/2015 10:25 AM, C R wrote:

Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on download.gimp.org?

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

If not, maybe we should offer up the direct download executable first to avoid confusion (and ranting and name-calling, apparently, lol).

The choice to endure the occasional complaint is deliberate.

Generally I find most sites make dedicated button-looking graphics for various kinds of downloads.

Unfortunately, these graphics have been burnt quite a lot by ads linking to malicious downloads, not using them so far is also a deliberate choice.

I would be happy to make some up to disambiguate the downloading links, for our less torrent-savvy users.

Thoughts?

People who do not read beyond the first line on our downloads page might not be happy with using GIMP, we might be doing them a favor with the current setup.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

If I were a new user, I'd Google "torrent" and immediately get links for Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP. Thought we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party websites and downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a 3rd party downloader just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for a lot of people, and they are likely to encounter lots of dangerous DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;) It takes trust in two different software packages just to install one program.

I guess I'd ask: Is it more important to enlighten people (and are we really doing that, or just scaring them off, or needlessly endangering them?) about torrents, or is it more important to make the installation of GIMP as easy and enjoyable as possible?

Unfortunately, these graphics have been burnt quite a lot by ads linking to malicious downloads, not using them so far is also a deliberate choice.

Yes, but I'm not suggesting some poorly conceived big green flashing button with DOWNLOAD NOW emblazoned upon it. I suggest a few buttons with gimp icons, themed for the current gimp page, and table-formatted along with some text explaining what the options actually do, so you don't have to guess.

Maybe a link to torrent tutorials /help files if the user wants to enlighten themselves, and we should say right away why torrents help us, so the user can make an informed choice.

TLDR: I think we could at least make the experience more pleasant, and we don't even have to change the options.

People who do not read beyond the first line on our downloads page might not be happy with using GIMP, we might be doing them a favor with the current setup.

I got scolded for expressing that opinion. Yea, was worded slightly different, but... lol

Well, I've been an ass, been diplomatic... now I'm thinking of being lazy. Anyone wants graphics, let me know. I'm glad to help.

-C

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/07/2015 10:25 AM, C R wrote:

Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on download.gimp.org?

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

If not, maybe we should offer up the direct download executable first to avoid confusion (and ranting and name-calling, apparently, lol).

The choice to endure the occasional complaint is deliberate.

Generally I find most sites make dedicated button-looking graphics for various kinds of downloads.

Unfortunately, these graphics have been burnt quite a lot by ads linking to malicious downloads, not using them so far is also a deliberate choice.

I would be happy to make some up to disambiguate the downloading links,

for

our less torrent-savvy users.

Thoughts?

People who do not read beyond the first line on our downloads page might not be happy with using GIMP, we might be doing them a favor with the current setup.

--
Regards,
Michael
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El jue, 07-05-2015 a las 20:39 +0100, C R escribió:

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

If I were a new user, I'd Google "torrent" and immediately get links for Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP. Thought we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party websites and downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a 3rd party downloader just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for a lot of people, and they are likely to encounter lots of dangerous DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;) It takes trust in two different software packages just to install one program.

[snip]

I guess I'd ask: Is it more important to enlighten people (and are we really doing that, or just scaring them off, or needlessly endangering them?) about torrents, or is it more important to make the installation of GIMP as easy and enjoyable as possible?

[snip]

Maybe a link to torrent tutorials /help files if the user wants to enlighten themselves, and we should say right away why torrents help us, so the user can make an informed choice.

TLDR: I think we could at least make the experience more pleasant, and we don't even have to change the options.

You've already answered your own questions yourself :) Choosing torrents as the primary choice is not a bad choice, and if a Google search is likely to return things related with the fabricated bad reputation torrents have, the answer is not removing torrents but communicating better why bittorrent is the right choice for software distribution.
Enlightening people AND making the experience pleasant shouldn't be two mutually exclusive options.
So yes, keeping the right options and teaking a little how the options are communicated to users should be enough to avoid misunderstandings.

People who do not read beyond the first line on our downloads page might not be happy with using GIMP, we might be doing them a favor with the current setup.

I got scolded for expressing that opinion. Yea, was worded slightly different, but... lol

Well, I've been an ass, been diplomatic... now I'm thinking of being lazy. Anyone wants graphics, let me know. I'm glad to help.

I'm a graphic designer like you, but I think this can be solved just by tweaking the page contents alone. Text styling hierarchy should be enough.
Let's try to come up with a better wording for the options, adding some short and easy information about the options, and that's it. If some of those ideas can be communicated better with graphics than with text, then let's try some graphics. The "download button" solution has some drawbacks as Michael pointed out, we should only use it if nothing better comes up.

Gez.

On May 7, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/07/2015 10:25 AM, C R wrote:

Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on download.gimp.org?

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

It might be more congenial, as well as more effective, to provide two links; the first (larger) to BitTorrent with a comment that participating in BitTorrent is faster and also is nice to everybody who uses and/or maintains GIMP, and the second (smaller) with a comment that says something like “Direct download, but without BItTorrent acceleration”.

Teaching, but not forcing.

— Burnie

On 05/07/2015 09:39 PM, C R wrote:

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

If I were a new user, I'd Google "torrent" and immediately get links for Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP.

Exactly.

The torrent files for GIMP are there to explicitly provide examples that are different to e.g. movie downloads - to make sure that this download method is not inherently linked to those.

Thought we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party websites and downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a 3rd party downloader just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for a lot of people, and they are likely to encounter lots of dangerous DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;) It takes trust in two different software packages just to install one program.

Yes, this is a problem - and the current way of linking the Wikipedia Bittorrent clients list is not as good as linking one particular safe client for the current platform.

For example, I pondered to go for Deluge for Windows, but didn't want to remove people's choices in favor of my own personal preference - but if there is some general agreement on good client options, we may link them directly.

I guess I'd ask: Is it more important to enlighten people (and are we really doing that, or just scaring them off, or needlessly endangering them?) about torrents, or is it more important to make the installation of GIMP as easy and enjoyable as possible?

I suggest a few buttons with gimp icons, themed for the current gimp page, and table-formatted along with some text explaining what the options actually do, so you don't have to guess.

Maybe a link to torrent tutorials /help files if the user wants to enlighten themselves, and we should say right away why torrents help us, so the user can make an informed choice.

Not sure if we need graphical buttons for that, though, links should do just fine and end the impatient ones' hunt for the magical "Download" word.

Well, I've been an ass, been diplomatic... now I'm thinking of being lazy. Anyone wants graphics, let me know. I'm glad to help.

You could also try to provide the patch for the HTML parts - these are in Git, https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp-web/tree/downloads - the file name per platform should be obvious, and the HTML is rather straightforward.

P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead of cc'ing it?

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

On Fri, 08 May 2015 02:16:47 +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/07/2015 09:39 PM, C R wrote:

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

If I were a new user, I'd Google "torrent" and immediately get links for Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP.

Exactly.

The torrent files for GIMP are there to explicitly provide examples that are different to e.g. movie downloads - to make sure that this download method is not inherently linked to those.

To what end? Is this to help GIMP users in some way, or to promote BitTorrent for reasons unrelated to GIMP per se? If it's the latter, it has the feel of "bundleware", the various "helpful" add-ons that are included with all too many freeware downloads. I realize there's not the same kind of commercial tie-in, but it has the same effect of trying to foist something on the user that isn't going to make his or her life any easier.

Thought we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party websites and downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a 3rd party downloader just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for a lot of people, and they are likely to encounter lots of dangerous DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;) It takes trust in two different software packages just to install one program.

Yes, this is a problem - and the current way of linking the Wikipedia Bittorrent clients list is not as good as linking one particular safe client for the current platform.

For example, I pondered to go for Deluge for Windows, but didn't want to remove people's choices in favor of my own personal preference - but if there is some general agreement on good client options, we may link them directly.

It also forces users to go through a bunch of extra steps for no purpose that's going to make their GIMP-using lives any easier: select a client (the wikipedia page really is all but useless for someone who's not particularly savvy already), hope that it's not yet another Trojan horse (the wikipedia page itself says that there are some clients that were discovered to be Trojans), download it, install it, and go through an unfamiliar procedure just to download GIMP. This is going to be more difficult for people to do than simply search el G00G for "gimp", find somewhere else to download it from more easily...and that download has all kinds of uglies bundled with it. The combination of said uglies and association of GIMP with various unsavory things linked to BitTorrent would be a big turnoff for a lot of people. More persistent people will notice that there are direct download links without the complexity, but what's the gain from forcing people to go through this extra hassle?

P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead of cc'ing it?

The list needs to set the reply-to: to make that work.

Robert Krawitz                                     

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --    http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton

Hi schumaml

On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 05:41:34PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/07/2015 10:25 AM, C R wrote:

Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on download.gimp.org?

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

I favour changing this to a link to get the installer exe directly. I say this from my own perspective: If I am downloading some free software application for Windows, I'd prefer a direct link to the installer by default rather than getting the torrent file. It is just convenient.

Also, as someone else said, forcing Bittorrent use upon users is not our agenda. We can have it as an option. Right now, the big large "Download GIMP 2.8.14" Windows download link is counter intuitive to most users' expectation.

Mukund

There seems to be enough interest in making a change of some sort to the Windows page. I will do a few mockups with different options, then pending any revisions, will provide a patch for the ver we agree on.

Thanks to everyone for input and patience.

-C

On 8 May 2015 01:17, "Michael Schumacher" wrote:

On 05/07/2015 09:39 PM, C R wrote:

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

If I were a new user, I'd Google "torrent" and immediately get links for Pirate Bay and other dodgy stuff... nothing having to do with GIMP.

Exactly.

The torrent files for GIMP are there to explicitly provide examples that are different to e.g. movie downloads - to make sure that this download method is not inherently linked to those.

Thought we were trying to prevent people from going to 3rd party websites and downloading viruses accidentally. Having to install a 3rd party downloader just to install GIMP is a pretty big hurdle for a lot of people, and they are likely to encounter lots of dangerous DOWNLOAD NOW buttons. ;) It takes trust in two different software packages just to install one program.

Yes, this is a problem - and the current way of linking the Wikipedia Bittorrent clients list is not as good as linking one particular safe client for the current platform.

For example, I pondered to go for Deluge for Windows, but didn't want to remove people's choices in favor of my own personal preference - but if there is some general agreement on good client options, we may link them directly.

I guess I'd ask: Is it more important to enlighten people (and are we really doing that, or just scaring them off, or needlessly endangering them?) about torrents, or is it more important to make the installation

of

GIMP as easy and enjoyable as possible?

I suggest a few buttons with gimp icons, themed for the current gimp

page,

and table-formatted along with some text explaining what the options actually do, so you don't have to guess.

Maybe a link to torrent tutorials /help files if the user wants to enlighten themselves, and we should say right away why torrents help

us, so

the user can make an informed choice.

Not sure if we need graphical buttons for that, though, links should do just fine and end the impatient ones' hunt for the magical "Download"

word.

Well, I've been an ass, been diplomatic... now I'm thinking of being

lazy.

Anyone wants graphics, let me know. I'm glad to help.

You could also try to provide the patch for the HTML parts - these are in Git, https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp-web/tree/downloads - the file name per platform should be obvious, and the HTML is rather straightforward.

P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead of cc'ing it?

--
Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

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On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 09:34 +0530, Mukund Sivaraman wrote:

Hi schumaml

On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 05:41:34PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/07/2015 10:25 AM, C R wrote:

Is the torrent listed first to save bandwidth on download.gimp.org?

Yes, and to also force Bittorrent knowledge upon users.

I favour changing this to a link to get the installer exe directly. I say this from my own perspective: If I am downloading some free software application for Windows, I'd prefer a direct link to the installer by default rather than getting the torrent file. It is just convenient.

Do we need more mirrors to make this (wasteful but easy) approach feasible?

Also, as someone else said, forcing Bittorrent use upon users is not our agenda.

No-one is being forced - both links are already there.

We can have it as an option. Right now, the big large "Download GIMP 2.8.14" Windows download link is counter intuitive to most users' expectation.

Do we have statistics on how many people use bittorrent and how many download?

Mukund
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tl;dr

But to get inspired, just try this: https://nightly.mozilla.org/

You could have a split table for different versions dev/alpha/beta/stable , etc.. just like Mozilla for Desktop/Mobile/etc.

Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal
http://lankerisms.blogspot.com
(+91) 9945036093

Yes, that's what I mean by "table layout". Probably something more minimalistic than that page, with
clear separation between each entry. It's a bit of a mess with no separation between different links on the same line. The Firefox graphics people really like to spank your eyeballs with transparent divs and flashy background images. I prefer something simpler, with one download button for each link (dislocated separate green buttons for download are visually confusing, for example, especially if you are from a country that doesn't read from right-to-left.

Will come back soon with samples.

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Laxminarayan Kamath wrote:

tl;dr

But to get inspired, just try this: https://nightly.mozilla.org/

You could have a split table for different versions dev/alpha/beta/stable , etc.. just like Mozilla for Desktop/Mobile/etc.

--
Laxminarayan Kamath Ammembal
http://lankerisms.blogspot.com
(+91) 9945036093

On 2015-05-08 00:04, Mukund Sivaraman wrote:

I favour changing this to a link to get the installer exe directly. I say this from my own perspective: If I am downloading some free software
application for Windows, I'd prefer a direct link to the installer by default rather than getting the torrent file. It is just convenient.

I also favour a link directly to an exe. I don't use BitTorrent. I don't have any machine with a BitTorrent client on it. When I'm downloading Open Source programs from the net I look for the direct download. If all I see is a file sharing link (BitTorrent, ed2k, or similar), I will go else where to download the program or I will look for a different program to do the same job as the one I was after.

Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that 
distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why 
we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include  |             --Chris Hardwick

On 2015-05-08 05:24, Laxminarayan Kamath wrote:

But to get inspired, just try this: https://nightly.mozilla.org/

You could have a split table for different versions

That reminds me of something else I find useful on software download pages.

It is handy when the page puts links related to the program file useful for the operating system I'm running at the top of the page. I also like it when they have links further down the page for other operating systems. There are times I download a program file for the main operating system I use AND for another OS that I sometimes run. It allows me to get everything I need in one visit. No muss. No fuss.

Some download places will include a link to a page with development releases for those that want to run/test the latest dev versions.

I offer the following example: http://www.singularityviewer.org/downloads

Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that 
distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why 
we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include  |             --Chris Hardwick

On 05/08/2015 04:46 AM, Robert Krawitz wrote:

To what end? Is this to help GIMP users in some way

It helps them to get download speeds that are reasonable, even if many (or actually, the more) people download the files at a given time.

P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead of cc'ing it?

The list needs to set the reply-to: to make that work.

It sets the corresponding mailing list headers already, so List-Reply in mail clients that support this will work. If some clients don't implement it, it would be nice if their users could ask the developers to do that.

Manually changing the To: address is also possible, this is what I do for clients - for example web interfaces - that do not support List-Reply.

Reply-to: vs. no Reply-To: is a longer debate, and I see the benefits of both ways.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

First try:
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons.png

I think it's a worthy thing to give users the option to torrent the files. If we are going to properly do that, let's make sure they don't have to go searching across the web for what they need, and be up-front about why it's better for them and the community to torrent. The above is based on these assumptions:

1. The average user is on the downloads page for the quick-fix and are not going to torrent things anyway (even if they knew what it was). It's too much overhead, and at this point they are only curious about GIMP. If they miss the second link (6 out of 7 of the friends/co-workers I asked about it missed it entirely, and all 7 of them downloaded the .torrent file and looked at me as if I were trying to trick them or something.

2. We want everyone to try out GIMP, even unmotivated people, so let's give them a shot at it by giving them the link exactly where they would expect it: The first link button on the right-hand side.

3. Some users will not mind using a torrent client if it helps the community. We provide the second link for them, on the same level as the first link, with an article immediately following to explain what it is, why it helps, and how to do it safely. Also explaining the benefits of torrenting in-general shows them, it's not just a one-time "bundleware" thing: it's a valuable tool for everyone.

Note that I have removed all the "known to work with" information, because the only known non-working versions are for Windows RT and Windows packages so old it's a crime against the user to be using them in the first place.

I did this based on these assumptions:

1. If the user does not see their version of windows in the list, they will probably download it anyway to try it out. - These users did not need the list.
2. If the user does see their version in the list, it makes no difference to the fact that they are there to download the file, and could have saved time looking through the list in the first place, just hitting the download button (or spent the time reading up on bit torrent) ;) - These users do not need the list.
3. If the user is running Windows 98 or older, it would be so rare as not even to be worth mentioning. Hard drives have a shelf life of 4-8 years, they would have had to reinstall win98 manually over and over and over. They may as well be using Linux. - These users need linux, not the list 4. Less is more. If we can exclude half a page of information, let's do it, and save everyone time.

I have thus replaced the list with an additional sentence at the end of the intro text on the page that says "Works with all known versions of Windows except Windows RT".

Thoughts?

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 4:21 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/08/2015 04:46 AM, Robert Krawitz wrote:

To what end? Is this to help GIMP users in some way

It helps them to get download speeds that are reasonable, even if many (or actually, the more) people download the files at a given time.

P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead of cc'ing it?

The list needs to set the reply-to: to make that work.

It sets the corresponding mailing list headers already, so List-Reply in mail clients that support this will work. If some clients don't implement it, it would be nice if their users could ask the developers to do that.

Manually changing the To: address is also possible, this is what I do for clients - for example web interfaces - that do not support List-Reply.

Reply-to: vs. no Reply-To: is a longer debate, and I see the benefits of both ways.

--
Regards,
Michael
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On 05/08/2015 11:36 AM, C R wrote:

I prefer something simpler, with one download button for each link (dislocated separate green buttons for download are visually confusing, for example, especially if you are from a country that doesn't read from right-to-left.

Please make sure that the changed layout can still accommodate long links, e.g. "Download GIMP 2.8.14" or "Download nightly builds"

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

On Fri, 08 May 2015 17:21:15 +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/08/2015 04:46 AM, Robert Krawitz wrote:

To what end? Is this to help GIMP users in some way

It helps them to get download speeds that are reasonable, even if many (or actually, the more) people download the files at a given time.

Mirroring would help too. There are plenty of services that provide that without messing with the content.

If I understand it correctly, BitTorrent also by default makes you an uploader as well as a downloader. If you're running on a slow DSL connection, that might make for a nasty surprise; if you're using a service provider that forbids running servers, that might get you into other trouble. And a lot of ISP's, for better or worse, block or otherwise muck with BitTorrent traffic, which is going to be hard for users to debug. Expecting people to learn to configure proxies, TOR, and what have you to get around this just to download an image editing program is, IMHO, not reasonable.

P.S. can you make your mail client reply to the list directly, instead of cc'ing it?

The list needs to set the reply-to: to make that work.

It sets the corresponding mailing list headers already, so List-Reply in mail clients that support this will work. If some clients don't implement it, it would be nice if their users could ask the developers to do that.

I see.

Manually changing the To: address is also possible, this is what I do for clients - for example web interfaces - that do not support List-Reply.

If one remembers to do that.

Robert Krawitz                                     

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --    http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton

On 05/08/2015 05:58 PM, C R wrote:

First try:
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons.png

Not really what I had in mind when you mentioned you planes, rather some small table that takes the place of the current download links, and a short, one paragraph explanation below each of them.

And can we use that Windows logo without any additional requirements? That's actually one of the reasons why there is not "click icon to get to the windows downloads" button on the downloads pages yet.

3. Some users will not mind using a torrent client if it helps the community. We provide the second link for them, on the same level as the first link, with an article immediately following to explain what it is, why it helps, and how to do it safely. Also explaining the benefits of torrenting in-general shows them, it's not just a one-time "bundleware" thing: it's a valuable tool for everyone.

So which Bittorrent client do we link to?

Note that I have removed all the "known to work with" information, because the only known non-working versions are for Windows RT and Windows packages so old it's a crime against the user to be using them in the first place.

I did this based on these assumptions:

I added this list because questions like "does it run on 98/ME/Vista/2000/NT4/... - and it did contain all known working versions because a plain "more recent than XP" is apparently not enough by itself.

I have thus replaced the list with an additional sentence at the end of the intro text on the page that says "Works with all known versions of Windows except Windows RT".

There still seem to be a considerable number of people running XP SP2. Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of them, yet this whole change is done to avoid a different wakeup call, so maybe you might want to reconsider...?

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

First try:

http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons.png

Not really what I had in mind when you mentioned you planes, rather some small table that takes the place of the current download links, and a short, one paragraph explanation below each of them.

I hope I surprised in a good way then... :) I realised that the list below it were not links to different installers, but just a long list of compatibility. There are only two links on this page, so a table was not really necessary.

Also, there would not be enough room in a small table cell to tell users what they need to know before going out to discover the wild west that is BitTorrent. I did not like that we are essentially tricking new users into downloading something they were unfamiliar with (and is also a bit of a lie, since clicking on the link decidedly does not "Download GIMP 2.8.14", it downloads a torrent link), knowing that they would fail and either quit, or go off on a dangerous quest to find a safe client.

Offer the safe option first, and for the more clever users who want to help, give them the option to help. This is why I put the torrent link second, but on the same level as the gimp.org download link. I could also put a little "Faster!" graphic on the bittorent link box if you think it actually is faster. We can list that as a benefit.

And can we use that Windows logo without any additional requirements?

That's actually one of the reasons why there is not "click icon to get to the windows downloads" button on the downloads pages yet.

Well, if you don't already have a compatibility agreement with Microsoft, you are breaking their rules by mentioning Windows in the first place. I mean, they certainly seem to think GIMP works with Windows, and have no issues using your logo:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/compatibility/CompatCenter/ProductViewerWithDefaultFilters?TempOsid=Windows%208.1&Locale=en-gb&Architecture=X64&TextSearch=gimp&Type=Both&CurrentPage=0&TotalPages=1&ShowCriteria=0&SortCriteria=Relevance&Compatibility=Unknown&LastRequested=14

Maybe it's worth an ask to use theirs? ;)

If not, that's not exactly a deal-breaker. I can replace it with a drawing of a window, or the letters "WIN", or a little white silhouette of Wilbur if you like.. I think people will get the point. Did you like the rest of the link, or the introductory article for BitTorrent for example? Are you okay with the BitTorent link being second?

3. Some users will not mind using a torrent client if it helps the

community. We provide the second link for them, on the same level as the first link, with an article immediately following to explain what it is, why it helps, and how to do it safely. Also explaining the benefits of torrenting in-general shows them, it's not just a one-time "bundleware" thing: it's a valuable tool for everyone.

So which Bittorrent client do we link to?

We could use icons for the most popular ones and give a choice. uTorrent seems to be the most popular for Windows at the moment. It's all just suggestions anyway, so I don't think listing the most popular one is necessarily endorsement of one over another.

Note that I have removed all the "known to work with" information,

because

the only known non-working versions are for Windows RT and Windows

packages

so old it's a crime against the user to be using them in the first place.

I did this based on these assumptions:

I added this list because questions like "does it run on 98/ME/Vista/2000/NT4/... - and it did contain all known working versions because a plain "more recent than XP" is apparently not enough by itself.

I could put "Works with all known variations of Windows from Windows XP (SP3) to Windows 8.1 with the exception of Windows RT" I find it funny that people would take time to ask and not just try it though...

I have thus replaced the list with an additional sentence at the end of the

intro text on the page that says "Works with all known versions of

Windows

except Windows RT".

There still seem to be a considerable number of people running XP SP2. Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of them, yet this whole change is done to avoid a different wakeup call, so maybe you might want to reconsider...?

Reconsider what? The whole thing? I'm happy to reconsider anything, btw. I want to give users a good experience. I want them to see the important stuff first, and after hearing comments and taking on board the goals of what we are trying to do, I think this is a much better solution that is essentially a compromise, but a clear and honest one.

Thoughts?

--
Regards,
Michael
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On 05/08/2015 06:12 PM, Robert Krawitz wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2015 17:21:15 +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/08/2015 04:46 AM, Robert Krawitz wrote:

To what end? Is this to help GIMP users in some way

It helps them to get download speeds that are reasonable, even if many (or actually, the more) people download the files at a given time.

Mirroring would help too. There are plenty of services that provide that without messing with the content.

We do that. And the torrent files make use of the mirrors - they have lots of web seeds each, so the client will download from many, if not all, mirrors in parallel. Unless it finds other peers, of course.

The fact that a simple approach - just creating a torrent file with the right settings and not having to setup anything on the server side - allows for that was another contributing factor to consider the use of Bittorrent.

And at the time we ran the initial checks, we were in a locked-down university network (LGM 2014 at Leipzig university), and while the Bittorrent ports themselves were blocked there, the web seed downloads worked just fine, because they use HTTP.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

On 05/08/2015 08:03 PM, C R wrote:

First try:

http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons.png

Not really what I had in mind when you mentioned you planes, rather some small table that takes the place of the current download links, and a short, one paragraph explanation below each of them.

I hope I surprised in a good way then... :)

I expected the change to be as small as possible, really just present the two existing links to the download options better.

There are only two links on this page, so a table was not really necessary.

Are you okay with the BitTorent link being second?

I'd be ok with having two links labeled "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP" and "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent" right above each other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph

To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this instead of the current few lines:

--------------

Download GIMP 2.8.14 via method 1

explanation for method 1, e.g. link to mirrors list, introduction bittorrent including link to wikipedia article

Download GIMP 2.8.14 via method 2

explanation for method 2, e.g. link to mirrors list, introduction to bittorrent including link to wikipedia article

--------------

I'm not really a fan of any images and/or icons being used for either. though.

3. Some users will not mind using a torrent client if it helps the

community. We provide the second link for them, on the same level as the first link, with an article immediately following to explain what it is, why it helps, and how to do it safely. Also explaining the benefits of torrenting in-general shows them, it's not just a one-time "bundleware" thing: it's a valuable tool for everyone.

So which Bittorrent client do we link to?

We could use icons for the most popular ones and give a choice. uTorrent seems to be the most popular for Windows at the moment.

If that is µTorrent, then this one is proprietary. If we are linking specific ones instead of the whole list, we should aim to only link to Free Software clients, that do not have strange ideas about what to include in their installers (and preferably not being hosted by SourceForge).

It's all just suggestions anyway, so I don't think listing the most popular one is necessarily endorsement of one over another.

I could put "Works with all known variations of Windows from Windows XP (SP3) to Windows 8.1 with the exception of Windows RT" I find it funny that people would take time to ask and not just try it though...

They might not be able to test it for themselves.

There still seem to be a considerable number of people running XP SP2. Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of them, yet this whole change is done to avoid a different wakeup call, so maybe you might want to reconsider...?

Reconsider what? The whole thing

Reconsider the wording of the Windows version compatibility.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

I'd be ok with having two links labeled "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP" and "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent" right above each other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph

To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this instead of the current few lines:

How about this?
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

I'm not really a fan of any images and/or icons being used for either.

though.

I have removed the icons in the above link. If necessary, I can also do the button graphics using just HTML and css.

If that is µTorrent, then this one is proprietary. If we are linking

specific ones instead of the whole list, we should aim to only link to Free Software clients, that do not have strange ideas about what to include in their installers (and preferably not being hosted by SourceForge).

I'm open to suggestions. I am not a windows torrent user, so I don't really have any good feedback in this respect. I think as long as the HTTP link is first, it will solve most of the issues anyway. If linking to the Wikipedia page is enough to satisfy, I'm fine with it (orange "learn more" link at the end of the description).

It's all just suggestions anyway, so I don't think listing the most

popular

one is necessarily endorsement of one over another.

I could put "Works with all known variations of Windows from Windows XP (SP3) to Windows 8.1 with the exception of Windows RT" I find it funny that people would take time to ask and not just try it though...

They might not be able to test it for themselves.

I have added a link to expand out the full compatibility list. This way the info is there for those few who can not test it themselves, and is out of the way for people to find what they are looking for quickly.

There still seem to be a considerable number of people running XP SP2.

Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of them, yet this whole change is done to avoid a different wakeup call, so maybe you might want to reconsider...?

Reconsider what? The whole thing

Reconsider the wording of the Windows version compatibility.

Do you think the afore-mentioned expanding list idea will be adequate? My thoughts: most people are going to be quite happy to click the thing that looks like an orange download button, and go enjoy themselves some GIMP goodness. :)

Thanks for the help, and happy Friday!

-PS: I'm happy to offer up source graphics files for anyone who wants to help tinker. They are presently .svg vector Inkscape files, but I can output some layered .xcf files as well if people want to GIMP them a bit.

-C

How about this?
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

I like

On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 22:04 +0100, C R wrote:

I'd be ok with having two links labeled "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP" and "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent" right above each other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph

To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this instead of the current few lines:

How about this?
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

Close. I'd still put the Bittorrent one first with text like

Get GIMP for Windows using Bittorrent. Fastest download. Least load on the GIMP servers. Requires a bittorrent client. Learn more...

Get GIMP for Windows over the Web with HTTP. Slower but no special program is needed.

Note, I'm repeating "GIMP for Windows" to minimize doubt.

I'd remove the first two paragraphs, or put them after the two big download buttons and their associated text.

There should also be a rounded-rectangle, "Download GIMP Manual"; ideally it'd be the English manual on the en page, the French manual on the French-language page, and so on, with the others all still listed.

Liam

I'm not really a fan of any images and/or icons being used for either.

though.

I have removed the icons in the above link. If necessary, I can also do the
button graphics using just HTML and css.

If that is µTorrent, then this one is proprietary. If we are linking

specific ones instead of the whole list, we should aim to only link to Free Software clients, that do not have strange ideas about what to include in their installers (and preferably not being hosted by SourceForge).

I'm open to suggestions. I am not a windows torrent user, so I don't really
have any good feedback in this respect. I think as long as the HTTP link is first, it will solve most of the issues
anyway. If linking to the Wikipedia page is enough to satisfy, I'm fine with it (orange "learn more" link at the end of the description).

It's all just suggestions anyway, so I don't think listing the most

popular

one is necessarily endorsement of one over another.

I could put "Works with all known variations of Windows from Windows XP (SP3) to Windows 8.1 with the exception of Windows RT" I find it funny that people would take time to ask and not just try it though...

They might not be able to test it for themselves.

I have added a link to expand out the full compatibility list. This way the
info is there for those few who can not test it themselves, and is out of
the way for people to find what they are looking for quickly.

There still seem to be a considerable number of people running XP SP2.

Not being able to run GIMP might be a wakeup call for some of them, yet this whole change is done to avoid a different wakeup call, so maybe you might want to reconsider...?

Reconsider what? The whole thing

Reconsider the wording of the Windows version compatibility.

Do you think the afore-mentioned expanding list idea will be adequate? My thoughts: most people are going to be quite happy to click the thing that looks like an orange download button, and go enjoy themselves some GIMP goodness. :)

Thanks for the help, and happy Friday!

-PS: I'm happy to offer up source graphics files for anyone who wants to
help tinker. They are presently .svg vector Inkscape files, but I can output some layered .xcf files as well if people want to GIMP them a bit.

-C
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On Fri, 08 May 2015 20:46:43 -0400, Liam R. E. Quin wrote:

On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 22:04 +0100, C R wrote:

I'd be ok with having two links labeled "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP" and "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent" right above each other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph

To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this instead of the current few lines:

How about this?
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

Close. I'd still put the Bittorrent one first with text like

Get GIMP for Windows using Bittorrent. Fastest download. Least load on the GIMP servers. Requires a bittorrent client. Learn more...

Get GIMP for Windows over the Web with HTTP. Slower but no special program is needed.

Note, I'm repeating "GIMP for Windows" to minimize doubt.

Think about this from the perspective of photographers or other graphic artists who otherwise aren't particularly tech-savvy. They don't know what "load on the GIMP servers" means and don't care. The download's really not that big anyway; they'll spend more time learning about BitTorrent (much less installing it) than they will just downloading it via HTTP. It's 87 MB or so; over my piddly little 1500/368 DSL link, that works out to about 9 minutes. I spent more time than that just reading about BitTorrent to even comment here. If you're asking people to go to wikipedia with a huge list of BitTorrent clients (which is intended as a reference, not as a guide) and telling them to select one, you're going to drive them crazy. If they pick an adware or malware client inadvertently (or because it has changed since el Wik listed it), they're going to blame GIMP for it ("hey, you're the ones who told us to go here!"). Downloading by browser is simple and everyone has done it countless times. If you provide an ftp link, the browser can even restart it if it's interrupted (which for something that small isn't very likely).

The reason BitTorrent puts less load on download.gimp.org is that it puts that load on people who have downloaded and are downloading GIMP. Once you start downloading it, others may then downloads chunks of it from *you*. Aside from potential TOS violations and the like, that's going to take up some of your bandwith, which the wording proposed above doesn't tell anyone.

You're asking -- not forcing, I know, but trying very hard to encourage -- people to do something they aren't likely to understand and can go wrong with in a lot of ways just to reduce gimp.org server load. That load could be reduced in other ways, such as by mirroring on Sourceforge, kernel.org, wherever.

Robert Krawitz                                     

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --    http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton

I would prefer to keep the simple direct-download link first, unless it is known that torrenting provides a very substantial benefit to the GIMP project in terms of server band-width. If it doesn't, or if people are clicking the current "if the torrent link doesn't work click here" link 99 times out of 100, then I think given the risk of exposing users to malware, we should save the torrent education for another area of the website, most especially on the Windows download page, as that is the most at-risk platform currently.

Once a user has malware, they do not know where it has come from. It would be just as easy to blame the GIMP project as the torrent client, etc. etc. If I installed a torrent client on my work machine, I'd have been fired, and I would not have been able to get half the office using GIMP to be able to edit my templates.

The more I think about it, the more I think we should just give the option as an alternative for savvy users. We are not able to provide the level of education necessary on this page to safely guide a Windows user to the proper tools.

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 2:28 AM, Robert Krawitz wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2015 20:46:43 -0400, Liam R. E. Quin wrote:

On Fri, 2015-05-08 at 22:04 +0100, C R wrote:

I'd be ok with having two links labeled "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP" and "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent" right above each other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph

To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this instead of the current few lines:

How about this?

http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

Close. I'd still put the Bittorrent one first with text like

Get GIMP for Windows using Bittorrent. Fastest download. Least load on

the GIMP servers. Requires a bittorrent client. Learn more...

Get GIMP for Windows over the Web with HTTP. Slower but no special

program is needed.

Note, I'm repeating "GIMP for Windows" to minimize doubt.

Think about this from the perspective of photographers or other graphic artists who otherwise aren't particularly tech-savvy. They don't know what "load on the GIMP servers" means and don't care. The download's really not that big anyway; they'll spend more time learning about BitTorrent (much less installing it) than they will just downloading it via HTTP. It's 87 MB or so; over my piddly little 1500/368 DSL link, that works out to about 9 minutes. I spent more time than that just reading about BitTorrent to even comment here. If you're asking people to go to wikipedia with a huge list of BitTorrent clients (which is intended as a reference, not as a guide) and telling them to select one, you're going to drive them crazy. If they pick an adware or malware client inadvertently (or because it has changed since el Wik listed it), they're going to blame GIMP for it ("hey, you're the ones who told us to go here!"). Downloading by browser is simple and everyone has done it countless times. If you provide an ftp link, the browser can even restart it if it's interrupted (which for something that small isn't very likely).

The reason BitTorrent puts less load on download.gimp.org is that it puts that load on people who have downloaded and are downloading GIMP. Once you start downloading it, others may then downloads chunks of it from *you*. Aside from potential TOS violations and the like, that's going to take up some of your bandwith, which the wording proposed above doesn't tell anyone.

You're asking -- not forcing, I know, but trying very hard to encourage -- people to do something they aren't likely to understand and can go wrong with in a lot of ways just to reduce gimp.org server load. That load could be reduced in other ways, such as by mirroring on Sourceforge, kernel.org, wherever. --
Robert Krawitz

*** MIT Engineers A Proud Tradition http://mitathletics.com *** Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- http://ProgFree.org Project lead for Gutenprint -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works." --Eric Crampton

On 05/08/2015 11:04 PM, C R wrote:

I'd be ok with having two links labeled "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP" and "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent" right above each other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph

To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this instead of the current few lines:

How about this?
http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

Should be fine, with some adjustments to the explanation texts.

BTW, we shouldn't really need images for that anymore, should we? Even if that means discarding the rounded coners, HTML+CSS for that seems to be more appropriate and would be easier to maintain.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

The rounded corners and drop shadows can be done with css. Recommended changes to the text?
On 14 May 2015 00:10, "Michael Schumacher" wrote:

On 05/08/2015 11:04 PM, C R wrote:

I'd be ok with having two links labeled "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP" and "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent" right above each other, in any order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent to one short paragraph

To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this instead of the current few lines:

How about this?

http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

Should be fine, with some adjustments to the explanation texts.

BTW, we shouldn't really need images for that anymore, should we? Even if that means discarding the rounded coners, HTML+CSS for that seems to be more appropriate and would be easier to maintain.

-- Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

To save retyping, here is the current text:

This link downloads the GIMP executable for windows via gimp."org. It can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, or want to help us
keep our bandwidth usage down, try the green link below for download via BitTorrent

BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system which saves the GIMP project
hosting fees associated with high download demand for GIMP. BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of BitTorrent users called "seeders". Learn more... On 14 May 2015 07:35, "C R" wrote:

The rounded corners and drop shadows can be done with css. Recommended changes to the text?
On 14 May 2015 00:10, "Michael Schumacher" wrote:

On 05/08/2015 11:04 PM, C R wrote:

I'd be ok with having two links labeled "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via HTTP" and "Download GIMP 2.8.14 via Bittorrent" right above each other, in

any

order. This should also help to reduce the explanation for Bittorrent

to

one short paragraph

To make this a bit more obvious, I'm imagining something like this instead of the current few lines:

How about this?

http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/gimp_windows_download_buttons2.png

Should be fine, with some adjustments to the explanation texts.

BTW, we shouldn't really need images for that anymore, should we? Even if that means discarding the rounded coners, HTML+CSS for that seems to be more appropriate and would be easier to maintain.

-- Regards,
Michael
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On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:

Hi,

To save retyping, here is the current text:

we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.

This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user experience:

This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via gimp.org. It can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the link below for download via BitTorrent

For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds, so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was blocked, and it did work this way).

BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system. BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called "seeders". Learn more...

What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note I have also changed the text a bit to reflect Michael's latest comments: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note also that the links to not ink to real files, as I have set them to the git repository values, which are replaced with the urls on the backend.

Comments?

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:

Hi,

To save retyping, here is the current text:

we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.

This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user experience:

This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via

gimp.org. It

can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the link below for download via BitTorrent

For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds, so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was blocked, and it did work this way).

BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system. BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called "seeders". Learn

more...

What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).

-- Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

Are people going to read the fine print or just pick their favourite colour? Perhaps the second option might read GIMP Torrent.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 7:43 AM, C R wrote:

I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note I have also changed the text a bit to reflect Michael's latest comments: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note also that the links to not ink to real files, as I have set them to the git repository values, which are replaced with the urls on the backend.

Comments?

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:

Hi,

To save retyping, here is the current text:

we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.

This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user experience:

This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via

gimp.org. It

can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the link below for download via BitTorrent

For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds, so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was blocked, and it did work this way).

BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system. BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called "seeders". Learn

more...

What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).

-- Regards,
Michael
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On 15-05-31 08:43 AM, C R wrote:

I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

[snip]

Comments?

Looks good to me. The text about BitTorrent states the key information someone should know about that option without being long winded.

The only change I would suggest is to capitalize the W in "windows".

Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include  |             --Chris Hardwick

It does say "via BitTorrent" on the teal link. There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as there are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However, I'm trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the developers who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as) prominent as the direct download link.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Alan Pater wrote:

Are people going to read the fine print or just pick their favourite colour? Perhaps the second option might read GIMP Torrent.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 7:43 AM, C R wrote:

I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note I have also changed the text a bit to reflect Michael's latest comments: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note also that the links to not ink to real files, as I have set them to the git repository values, which are replaced with the urls on the

backend.

Comments?

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Michael Schumacher

wrote:

On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:

Hi,

To save retyping, here is the current text:

we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.

This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user experience:

This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via

gimp.org. It

can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the link below for download via BitTorrent

For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds, so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was blocked, and it did work this way).

BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system. BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called "seeders". Learn

more...

What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).

-- Regards,
Michael
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List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

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Here are a few changes, based on new suggestions: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index2.html

Windows capitalised (oops), and I've added (.exe) and (.torrent) to the link titles. This is for those that have a hard time reading fine print, and for some reason like the colour teal more than orange. ;D

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Alan Pater wrote:

Are people going to read the fine print or just pick their favourite colour? Perhaps the second option might read GIMP Torrent.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 7:43 AM, C R wrote:

I have developed the html for the buttons. A test can be found here: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note I have also changed the text a bit to reflect Michael's latest comments: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/

Note also that the links to not ink to real files, as I have set them to the git repository values, which are replaced with the urls on the

backend.

Comments?

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Michael Schumacher

wrote:

On 05/14/2015 08:47 AM, C R wrote:

Hi,

To save retyping, here is the current text:

we do not really have to worry about bandwidth usage (could be that the webserver config is the limiting factor) and especially not about fees.

This allows us to make the texts a bit easier, and focus on the user experience:

This link downloads the GIMP executable for Windows platforms via

gimp.org. It

can be a bit slow at times, so if you are having problems, try the link below for download via BitTorrent

For BitTorrent, all of our torrents are set up with multiple web seeds, so this will work even without seeders. As I wrote before , we tested this in a university network at a conference, where torrent traffic was blocked, and it did work this way).

BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file sharing system. BitTorrent works by downloading GIMP from a distributed network of mirror sites and from other BitTorrent users called "seeders". Learn

more...

What would be nice to have is a diff to the current download site (or maybe even only the Windows.htrw part of it).

-- Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

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List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:

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List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

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On 05/31/2015 06:25 PM, C R wrote:

Here are a few changes, based on new suggestions: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index2.html

Windows capitalised (oops), and I've added (.exe) and (.torrent) to the link titles. This is for those that have a hard time reading fine print, and for some reason like the colour teal more than orange. ;D

This breaks horribly on my system. I'd suggest that we leave the titles as before, the finer print should be noticeable enough in that version.

Plus, we can then use the same for the OSX page without any additional changes besides the "for Windows" in the description for the first option

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

Michael, could you please elaborate on how the layout breaks, what browser you are using, etc? It will help me come up with better solutions.

The code validates under HTML5, so I'm unclear as to waht might be causing the problems.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/31/2015 06:25 PM, C R wrote:

Here are a few changes, based on new suggestions: http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index2.html

Windows capitalised (oops), and I've added (.exe) and (.torrent) to the link titles. This is for those that have a hard time reading fine print, and for some reason like the colour teal more than orange. ;D

This breaks horribly on my system. I'd suggest that we leave the titles as before, the finer print should be noticeable enough in that version.

Plus, we can then use the same for the OSX page without any additional changes besides the "for Windows" in the description for the first option

-- Regards,
Michael
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On 05/31/2015 06:40 PM, C R wrote:

Michael, could you please elaborate on how the layout breaks, what browser you are using, etc? It will help me come up with better solutions.

The code validates under HTML5, so I'm unclear as to waht might be causing the problems.

The (.torrent) makes the text too long, and the line breaks. This overlaps with the "via BitTorrent" below.

I'm actually tempted to just go live with the latest version minus the (.exe) and (.torrent) in the titles, some minor adjustment to the description of the former, and we'll see how people like that.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

Sure, go for it. Let me know if you want/need anything else from me. Odd that it breaks. I can't get it to break on any of the browsers I'm using. :)

If you'd let me know which browser is wrapping it, I can have a look at altering the code.

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/31/2015 06:40 PM, C R wrote:

Michael, could you please elaborate on how the layout breaks, what

browser

you are using, etc? It will help me come up with better solutions.

The code validates under HTML5, so I'm unclear as to waht might be

causing

the problems.

The (.torrent) makes the text too long, and the line breaks. This overlaps with the "via BitTorrent" below.

I'm actually tempted to just go live with the latest version minus the (.exe) and (.torrent) in the titles, some minor adjustment to the description of the former, and we'll see how people like that.

-- Regards,
Michael
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On 05/31/2015 06:49 PM, C R wrote:

Sure, go for it. Let me know if you want/need anything else from me. Odd that it breaks. I can't get it to break on any of the browsers I'm using. :)

If you'd let me know which browser is wrapping it, I can have a look at altering the code.

Iceweasel 38.0.1

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

There's also this:
http://www.opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index3.html

That puts the extensions (which are still useful information) down where they will not cause wrapping.

Re: Iceweasel breakage: Ah, works fine in Iceweasel 24.3.0... freakish. Oh well. Unfortunately, the packages for 38.0.1 aren't there for Ubuntu 14.04 yet. May try to compile it form source later, but out of time today unfortunately.

Yea, I'd say in the interests of twisting the screws on SF, we just go with the best of the current options for now. We can always patch something else later. I think this will solve most of our installation complaints for the time being.

-C

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 5:52 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 05/31/2015 06:49 PM, C R wrote:

Sure, go for it. Let me know if you want/need anything else from me. Odd that it breaks. I can't get it to break on any of the browsers I'm using. :)

If you'd let me know which browser is wrapping it, I can have a look at altering the code.

Iceweasel 38.0.1

--
Regards,
Michael
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---- Aan zo, 31 mei 2015 19:09:53 +0200 C R schreef ---- > There's also this:
> http://www.opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index3.html >
> That puts the extensions (which are still useful information) down where > they will not cause wrapping.
>

Maybe it's better for users if you replace "executable" with "installer"?

On Sunday, May 31, 2015, 19:09:53, C R wrote:

Ah, works fine in Iceweasel 24.3.0... freakish. Oh well. Unfortunately, the packages for 38.0.1 aren't there for Ubuntu 14.04 yet. May try to compile it form source later, but out of time today unfortunately.

It doesn't break for me on Firefox 38.0.1, at least not unless I zoom in to 140% or more.

< Jernej Simoni ><><><><>< http://eternallybored.org/ >

In order to get a loan you must first prove you don't need it.
       -- Bankers Axiom

On Sunday, May 31, 2015, 19:13:32, Geoffrey De Belie wrote:

Maybe it's better for users if you replace "executable" with "installer"?

That would definitely be better.

< Jernej Simoni ><><><><>< http://eternallybored.org/ >

Things always fall at right angles.
       -- Sprinkle's Law

I've replaced "Windows executable" with "Windows installer" in the description.
I've opted to keep the .exe extension however since it describes what the user can expect to be downloading when they click the download button.

http://opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index4.html

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Geoffrey De Belie < computergeoffrey@zoho.com> wrote:

---- Aan zo, 31 mei 2015 19:09:53 +0200 C R schreef ---- > There's also this:
> http://www.opendesignstudio.org/gimp/samples/index3.html >
> That puts the extensions (which are still useful information) down where > they will not cause wrapping.
>

Maybe it's better for users if you replace "executable" with "installer"?

El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:

It does say "via BitTorrent" on the teal link. There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as there are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However, I'm trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the developers who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as) prominent as the direct download link.

Hi,
I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad before you trimmed the text as Michael said. Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

font-family: Segoe,Myriad,Tahoma,"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;

I guess you have one of the listed fonts installed so you can't see how it looks when it falls back to sans-serif, which is the font Micheal and I are seeing (and everyone who doesn't the MS fontos or Myriad).

I don't think it's a good idea to use those fonts. If you want something better-looking that system sans-serif, you should use webfonts in order to make sure that what people see is what you intended, otherwise it's a lottery.

On the other hand, the html you used is a bit messy. It's not completely wrong and it probably validates, but it's unnecessarily convoluted. First of all: don't use tables for layout. Also don't put stuff in divs, style them directly. You could style the "a" element itself and float it to the left with CSS, and you could remove all the divs and the tables. Just do this:
Download GIMP 2.8.1.4Via HTTP
Description

With that html alone, and styling the a.button-http class (and .button-http span) you're done
Make them float to the left of the paragraph and you get the same with a fraction of the markup.
If you're in doubt just poke me or check the Visual Formatting Model docs at W3C

Finally, on a personal note, I think the rounded corners for buttons look a bit dated. The current trend for this kind of stuff seems to be no rounded corners at all or a very small radius.

Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

Gez

On 06/01/2015 01:14 AM, Gez wrote:

El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:

It does say "via BitTorrent" on the teal link. There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as there are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However, I'm trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the developers who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as) prominent as the direct download link.

Hi,
I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad before you trimmed the text as Michael said. Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

This change is live now - it was rather easy to apply into the current layout. Thanks, C R.

I've tested it on http://testing.gimp.org/downloads/

and started the deployment to http://www.gimp.org/downloads/

(remember: these pages adjust to your platform)

I think we should try that for the Windows downloads only for a few days, probably make some adjustments to the code (I would prefer the links to be usable without styling, right now the ordering of the text is a bit weird then)

I've also got an idea how the platform switching can be done with the current infrastructure in a rather easy way, but I do not want this change to interfere with the deployment of those buttons.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 01:40:10 +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 06/01/2015 01:14 AM, Gez wrote:

El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:

It does say "via BitTorrent" on the teal link. There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as there are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However, I'm trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the developers who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as) prominent as the direct download link.

Hi,
I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad before you trimmed the text as Michael said. Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

This change is live now - it was rather easy to apply into the current layout. Thanks, C R.

I've tested it on http://testing.gimp.org/downloads/

and started the deployment to http://www.gimp.org/downloads/

I like the look of that. I suggest that the same change be made to the Mac native installer.

Robert Krawitz                                     

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --    http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton

Thanks for the comments. For reference, the font styling is the same that is already deployed throughout the site, the rounded corners mimic the download button on the front page with the added requirement that our not contain bitmap graphics, and the color scheme is designed to fit on with what's there.

As much as possible, I wanted to keep the interface consistent with the rest of the site. This avoids the new buttons looking out of place as discussed much earlier in this thread.

If you have a cleaner approach that achieves the same effect, feel free to submit a patch. I'm not precious about the code.

-C

On 1 Jun 2015 00:16, "Gez" wrote:

El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:

It does say "via BitTorrent" on the teal link. There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as

there

are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However,

I'm

trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the

developers

who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as) prominent as the direct download link.

Hi,
I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad before you trimmed the text as Michael said. Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

font-family: Segoe,Myriad,Tahoma,"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;

I guess you have one of the listed fonts installed so you can't see how it looks when it falls back to sans-serif, which is the font Micheal and I are seeing (and everyone who doesn't the MS fontos or Myriad).

I don't think it's a good idea to use those fonts. If you want something better-looking that system sans-serif, you should use webfonts in order to make sure that what people see is what you intended, otherwise it's a lottery.

On the other hand, the html you used is a bit messy. It's not completely wrong and it probably validates, but it's unnecessarily convoluted. First of all: don't use tables for layout. Also don't put stuff in divs, style them directly. You could style the "a" element itself and float it to the left with CSS, and you could remove all the divs and the tables. Just do this:
Download GIMP 2.8.1.4Via HTTP
Description

With that html alone, and styling the a.button-http class (and .button-http span) you're done
Make them float to the left of the paragraph and you get the same with a fraction of the markup.
If you're in doubt just poke me or check the Visual Formatting Model docs at W3C

Finally, on a personal note, I think the rounded corners for buttons look a bit dated. The current trend for this kind of stuff seems to be no rounded corners at all or a very small radius.

Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

Gez

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No problem. Glad to help.

-C On 1 Jun 2015 00:40, "Michael Schumacher" wrote:

On 06/01/2015 01:14 AM, Gez wrote:

El dom, 31-05-2015 a las 17:14 +0100, C R escribió:

It does say "via BitTorrent" on the teal link. There's a good case to be made for just listing the torrent file as a smaller text-link after the orange download button, though. If I had my way, we would not be listing a torrent at all for windows users, as

there

are far too many things that can go wrong for that platform. However,

I'm

trying to present a solution that everyone is okay with. Esp the

developers

who will, in the end, be applying these patches to the site. Most of the devs have been supportive of keeping the torrent link (at least as) prominent as the direct download link.

Hi,
I just followed the previous posts and I confirm that it looked bad before you trimmed the text as Michael said. Now text fits, but the problem wasn't the length of text but its font.

Thank you for taking care of this. Let me know if you need a hand.

This change is live now - it was rather easy to apply into the current layout. Thanks, C R.

I've tested it on http://testing.gimp.org/downloads/

and started the deployment to http://www.gimp.org/downloads/

(remember: these pages adjust to your platform)

I think we should try that for the Windows downloads only for a few days, probably make some adjustments to the code (I would prefer the links to be usable without styling, right now the ordering of the text is a bit weird then)

I've also got an idea how the platform switching can be done with the current infrastructure in a rather easy way, but I do not want this change to interfere with the deployment of those buttons.

-- Regards,
Michael
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Do I infer correctly that a Linux user need not know of or care about BitTorrent using that link? If so, is it perhaps confusing to such folk (if any truly exist)?

On May 31, 2015, at 5:06 PM, C R wrote:

No problem. Glad to help.

-C

On 06/02/2015 12:48 AM, Burnell West wrote:

Hi Burnell,

Do I infer correctly that a Linux user need not know of or care about BitTorrent using that link? If so, is it perhaps confusing to such folk (if any truly exist)?

our "download links" for GNU/Linux users are currently more or less a collection of "this is how to use your package management" instructions.

There is currently no package that a user could just download and run on this platform. I know that several such approaches have been out there (similar in style to Apple disk image .dmg files, IIRC), but I'm unaware whether any of them is in widespread use, and I don't think we currently have anyone with the expertise to build a package like this among the core contributors (I could be wrong about this, though).

I have to admit that I do not fully understand your message, though - but because of how the downloads page currently works, it is actually a bit (too) hard for users of one platform to see the downloads for another, so right now a user on a GNU/Linux system is most likely not going to see the new downloads button that we're testing for the Windows downloads, unless they wish to do so and use the "show other downloads" link.

An advantage of platforms with package management systems is that installing a BitTorrent client is just a few clicks or keys away, unlike on the windows platforms where you have carefully step over the malicous clients out there (this is a valid ciriticism that we will still have to address for the Windows variant of our downloads page).

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

The new design looks very good, much better than what was there previously. Users can quickly find the installer link now.

I suggest a few changes:

* Change "This link downloads the GIMP installer for Windows by Jernej Simončič via download.gimp.org." to "This link downloads the official GIMP installer for Windows via download.gimp.org." This is because a new user who visits the website may wonder who Jernej is and if his builds can be trusted. ender agrees.

* The "via HTTP (.exe)" and "via BitTorrent (.torrent)" font sizes are too small. I suggest scrapping this 2 shade split. Just use single ovals with these texts in the top line's font size:

- Download GIMP 2.8.14 directly

- Download GIMP 2.8.14 via BitTorrent

Any user who needs more information can see the associated paragraphs, or hover on the buttons to see the links.

* Another thing to add perhaps is: "This installer doesn't contain any adware, malware or any other bloat. It only contains GIMP." But it sounds rather strange to have to state it. We seem to live in such times.

Mukund

El lun, 01-06-2015 a las 01:04 +0100, C R escribió:

Thanks for the comments. For reference, the font styling is the same that is already deployed throughout the site, the rounded corners mimic the download button on the front page with the added requirement that our not contain bitmap graphics, and the color scheme is designed to fit on with what's there.

As much as possible, I wanted to keep the interface consistent with the rest of the site. This avoids the new buttons looking out of place as discussed much earlier in this thread.

If you have a cleaner approach that achieves the same effect, feel free to submit a patch. I'm not precious about the code.

Hi,
A few days ago after your design was implemented I provided a patch that cleans up the markup a bit and makes some minor tweaks to the appearance of the buttons. The patch wasn't reviewed yet, so I'm leaving this message in case somebody wants to take a look and give their opinion.

http://www.ohweb.com.ar/test/GIMP-download.html

The main difference is that it doesn't use tables and the links themselves are styled instead of wrapping them with divs. I showed this to a couple of guys in the IRC channel, and they gave me some useful feedback about the size of the fonts. It's true that the "via HTTP" and "via BitTorrent" labels are a bit small, specially if you use a high resolution display, but I tried to keep the appearance of your buttons as much as possible. Also I kept the over color the rest of the links of the site use. It looks ok on the teal background, but it doesn't look so good on the orange one.
Maybe that has to be changed too.

Thoughts?

Gez

Looks good to me, Gez. Nice work. Only thing: I used the table layout to prevent wrapping which can be confusing/messy when space is confined.

I could probably have used divs instead of table cells, however the table's structure was useful, guaranteed to work with whatever layout it's dropped into, and makes sense both in terms of layout and design metaphor (I merely left out the column headers for "download link" and "description" respectively).

I like your version of the button code better, fwiw.

-C

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 1:26 AM, Gez wrote:

El lun, 01-06-2015 a las 01:04 +0100, C R escribió:

Thanks for the comments. For reference, the font styling is the same that is already deployed throughout the site, the rounded corners mimic the download button on the front page with the added requirement that our not contain bitmap graphics, and the color scheme is designed to fit on with what's there.

As much as possible, I wanted to keep the interface consistent with the rest of the site. This avoids the new buttons looking out of place as discussed much earlier in this thread.

If you have a cleaner approach that achieves the same effect, feel free to submit a patch. I'm not precious about the code.

Hi,
A few days ago after your design was implemented I provided a patch that cleans up the markup a bit and makes some minor tweaks to the appearance of the buttons. The patch wasn't reviewed yet, so I'm leaving this message in case somebody wants to take a look and give their opinion.

http://www.ohweb.com.ar/test/GIMP-download.html

The main difference is that it doesn't use tables and the links themselves are styled instead of wrapping them with divs. I showed this to a couple of guys in the IRC channel, and they gave me some useful feedback about the size of the fonts. It's true that the "via HTTP" and "via BitTorrent" labels are a bit small, specially if you use a high resolution display, but I tried to keep the appearance of your buttons as much as possible. Also I kept the over color the rest of the links of the site use. It looks ok on the teal background, but it doesn't look so good on the orange one.
Maybe that has to be changed too.

Thoughts?

Gez