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Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)

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Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) Richard Gitschlag 22 Jun 21:46
  Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) peter sikking 22 Jun 22:50
   Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) Richard Gitschlag 22 Jun 23:34
    Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) peter sikking 23 Jun 00:06
   Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) Christopher Curtis 23 Jun 20:06
    Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]‏ Richard Gitschlag 24 Jun 16:53
     Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]‏ Guillermo Espertino (Gez) 24 Jun 18:43
  Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) Liam R E Quin 22 Jun 22:59
   Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)] Richard Gitschlag 23 Jun 17:47
    Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)] Liam R E Quin 24 Jun 02:48
     Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)] Ragnar Brynjúlfsson 24 Jun 06:33
     Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)] Tobias Oelgarte 24 Jun 11:23
      Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)] Guillermo Espertino (Gez) 24 Jun 14:00
    Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)] Liam R E Quin 24 Jun 02:48
   Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)] Richard Gitschlag 23 Jun 17:47
Richard Gitschlag
2012-06-22 21:46:48 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)

Seriously -- I propose that the "Save a Copy..." command should be removed and its functionality merged into the "Export As..." command.

I can provide three reasons why.

1 - Aside from the specific file format they write to disk, the commands are functionally identical.

"Save a Copy...": - Always prompts for a filename.
- Does not change the save file associated with the open image. - Does not clean the image state (GIMP may still prompt about unsaved changes)

"Export As...": - Always prompts for a filename.
- Does not change the save file associated with the open image. - Does not clean the image state (GIMP may still prompt about unsaved changes)

2 - "Save a Copy..." was 2.6's version of an Export command anyway, so you could output a standard file format from your open XCF without worrying about losing work if you forget to re-save your original XCF afterwards.

3 - It's been mentioned how the "Export" command needs a more prominent location in the cluttered File menu; right next to the normal (XCF) Save commands seems like a pretty good spot.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

peter sikking
2012-06-22 22:50:33 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)

Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Seriously -- I propose that the "Save a Copy..." command should be removed and its functionality merged into the "Export As..." command.

seriously... how can you write that? when the core of the discussion (that you are actively following) is that

Save does export anymore, and Export does not save.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

Liam R E Quin
2012-06-22 22:59:51 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)

On Fri, 2012-06-22 at 14:46 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Seriously -- I propose that the "Save a Copy..." command should be removed and its functionality merged into the "Export As..." command.

"save a copy" saves as xcf without changing the image filename

Save a copy could be merged into save as, with a checkbox, [ ] make this the current image

but then people wouldn't so easily be able to bind a key to it.

It's not doing the same thing as "export a lossy copy you might or might not be able to re-open"

Liam

Richard Gitschlag
2012-06-22 23:34:07 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)

Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) From: peter@mmiworks.net
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 00:50:33 +0200 CC: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
To: strata_ranger@hotmail.com

Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Seriously -- I propose that the "Save a Copy..." command should be removed and its functionality merged into the "Export As..." command.

seriously... how can you write that? when the core of the discussion (that you are actively following) is that Save does export anymore, and Export does not save.

--ps

"Save a copy" does not save either.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

peter sikking
2012-06-23 00:06:19 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)

Richard Gitschlag wrote:

"Save a copy" does not save either.

I make use of the manual if I work on sorting out some UI:

especially if I know the topic to be hairy and full of pitfalls.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

Richard Gitschlag
2012-06-23 17:47:04 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]

Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) From: liam@holoweb.net
To: strata_ranger@hotmail.com
CC: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:59:51 -0400

"save a copy" saves as xcf without changing the image filename

It's not doing the same thing as "export a lossy copy you might or might not be able to re-open"

Liam

Is this difference enough of a difference to even be a difference for the end user?

Neither command takes action without a dialog prompt, neither one changes the file associated with the current image, neither one wipes the image state clean. They are functionally identical, target file format (and consequences thereof) notwithstanding.

The way I see it, and reason for even posting such a radical suggestion in the first place, is that the Export command does not, necessarily, have to care whether the user selects a standard or XCF file format for the task, because either way it has no effect on the current image. It doesn't change the target of subsequent Save commands, it doesn't un-dirty the image state (with possible loss of work when exiting GIMP).

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

On Fri, 2012-06-22 at 14:46 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Seriously -- I propose that the "Save a Copy..." command should be removed and its functionality merged into the "Export As..." command.

--
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml Take off your shoes. Now.

Richard Gitschlag
2012-06-23 17:47:04 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]

Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) From: liam@holoweb.net
To: strata_ranger@hotmail.com
CC: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:59:51 -0400

"save a copy" saves as xcf without changing the image filename

It's not doing the same thing as "export a lossy copy you might or might not be able to re-open"

Liam

Is this difference enough of a difference to even be a difference for the end user?

Neither command takes action without a dialog prompt, neither one changes the file associated with the current image, neither one wipes the image state clean. They are functionally identical, target file format (and consequences thereof) notwithstanding.

The way I see it, and reason for even posting such a radical suggestion in the first place, is that the Export command does not, necessarily, have to care whether the user selects a standard or XCF file format for the task, because either way it has no effect on the current image. It doesn't change the target of subsequent Save commands, it doesn't un-dirty the image state (with possible loss of work when exiting GIMP).

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

On Fri, 2012-06-22 at 14:46 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Seriously -- I propose that the "Save a Copy..." command should be removed and its functionality merged into the "Export As..." command.

--
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml Take off your shoes. Now.

Christopher Curtis
2012-06-23 20:06:47 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 6:50 PM, peter sikking wrote:

Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Seriously -- I propose that the "Save a Copy..." command should be

removed and its functionality merged into the "Export As..." command.

Save does export anymore, and Export does not save.

The suggestion seems eminently reasonable to me. That "Save" does not lose information seems natural, but that "Export" must lose information seems contrived.

Chris

Liam R E Quin
2012-06-24 02:48:39 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]

On Sat, 2012-06-23 at 10:47 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

[Liam wrote]

"save a copy" saves as xcf without changing the image filename

It's not doing the same thing as "export a lossy copy you might or might not be able to re-open"

Is this difference enough of a difference to even be a difference for the end user?

Yes, because it affects workflow - and because the GIMP user is supposed not to be a beginner computer user, according to the Holy Product Vision :)

Neither command takes action without a dialog prompt, neither one changes the file associated with the current image,

Save changes the name from Untitled the first time you use it. Save As and Save a Copy are the same except that Save As changes what Save will do next time you use it, i.e. changes the current filename.

Save a Copy is useful, for example, for making periodic backups or checkpoints, e.g. as part of a creative process.

Liam

Liam R E Quin
2012-06-24 02:48:39 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]

On Sat, 2012-06-23 at 10:47 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

[Liam wrote]

"save a copy" saves as xcf without changing the image filename

It's not doing the same thing as "export a lossy copy you might or might not be able to re-open"

Is this difference enough of a difference to even be a difference for the end user?

Yes, because it affects workflow - and because the GIMP user is supposed not to be a beginner computer user, according to the Holy Product Vision :)

Neither command takes action without a dialog prompt, neither one changes the file associated with the current image,

Save changes the name from Untitled the first time you use it. Save As and Save a Copy are the same except that Save As changes what Save will do next time you use it, i.e. changes the current filename.

Save a Copy is useful, for example, for making periodic backups or checkpoints, e.g. as part of a creative process.

Liam

Ragnar Brynjúlfsson
2012-06-24 06:33:36 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]

While reading through the endless mails about the new Export and Save (which btw I agree with the approach the devs have taken), it got me thinking just the same.

Does Save a Copy still have a function, or is it just cluttering up the menu?

Personally I think it's just cluttering up the menu, and it can be confusing to new users to tell the difference between Save As and Save a Copy. Putting it under Export makes sense, even though, unlike the other export file formats, it retains all the information in you file.

Like Liam said, it can be useful for making periodic backups, but you could also use Save As to store new versions of your file or just use Export with xcf support, which would function exactly like Save a Copy does today. Or you could simply use an external tool, like your file browser, a backup script, Subversion etc.

If we keep it or make it part of Export is not really a big deal, but might be worth considering.

Ragnar

Tobias Oelgarte
2012-06-24 11:23:48 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]

Am 24.06.2012 04:48, schrieb Liam R E Quin:

Save changes the name from Untitled the first time you use it. Save As and Save a Copy are the same except that Save As changes what Save will do next time you use it, i.e. changes the current filename.

Save a Copy is useful, for example, for making periodic backups or checkpoints, e.g. as part of a creative process.

Liam

I personally never use "save a copy". I just use "save as" and append a new version number to the document. If i look at Blender then they did go even a step further. There are small nice buttons "+" and "-" to increase/decrease the version number without typing.

Tobias Oelgarte

Guillermo Espertino (Gez)
2012-06-24 14:00:37 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]

El 24/06/12 08:23, Tobias Oelgarte escribi:

Am 24.06.2012 04:48, schrieb Liam R E Quin:

Save changes the name from Untitled the first time you use it. Save As and Save a Copy are the same except that Save As changes what Save will do next time you use it, i.e. changes the current filename.

Save a Copy is useful, for example, for making periodic backups or checkpoints, e.g. as part of a creative process.

Liam

I personally never use "save a copy". I just use "save as" and append a new version number to the document. If i look at Blender then they did go even a step further. There are small nice buttons "+" and "-" to increase/decrease the version number without typing.

Let's don't forget that the future of GIMP is a non-destructive workflow where probably the structure of the project files will make save and save a copy obsolete, since the "versions" of the file could be stored in the same internal nodetree as snapshots. Maybe we're taking this discussion too far. What we have now covers more or less both the new and old workflows (you can still change the CTRL+E shortcut to CTRL+S) and the new workflow seems to be better suited for that non-destructive future.
I don't know how you guys feel about this, but I'd hate to see that future postponed because we can't agree about a couple of items in the file menu and their shortcuts.

Gez.

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Richard Gitschlag
2012-06-24 16:53:33 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]‏

Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:06:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really) From: ccurtis0@gmail.com
To: peter@mmiworks.net
CC: strata_ranger@hotmail.com; gimp-developer-list@gnome.org

That "Save" does not lose information seems natural, but that "Export" must lose information seems contrived.

Chris-----------

I agree. To the end user, whether or not Export "loses" any information is different with each and every image. A single-layer image with no transparency and no metadata (paths, masks, EXIF, color profile, etc.) can be safely written to over a dozen assorted image formats with nothing of value lost. Yes, JPG is lossy and GIF is inherently indexed, but the target user knows that already, they'll pick a file format appropriate for what they need.

Out of curiosity, I tried typing an XCF file into the Export dialog yesterday and got that non-negotiable warning that GIMP won't let you do that. Um ... why? I see no practical reason why the Export command should be prohibited from outputting an XCF file to disk when it already outputs every other image format GIMP has any support for.

Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:23:48 +0200 From: tobias.oelgarte@googlemail.com To: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]

I personally never use "save a copy". I just use "save as" and append a new version number to the document. If i look at Blender then they did go even a step further. There are small nice buttons "+" and "-" to increase/decrease the version number without typing.

-----------

I am also the type to use a "versioned" file naming scheme (kinda), every time I would want to "Save a Copy" of my project I actually just hit "Save As" and increment my filename - the previous filename is never touched again and automatically becomes the "backup copy". So yes, reason number four would be that my personal workflow has no use for "Save a Copy" either.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Guillermo Espertino (Gez)
2012-06-24 18:43:11 UTC (over 2 years ago)

Merge "Save a Copy" with "Export As" [was: Ditch the "Save a Copy" command (really)]‏

El 24/06/12 13:53, Richard Gitschlag escribió:

Out of curiosity, I tried typing an XCF file into the Export dialog yesterday and got that non-negotiable warning that GIMP won't let you do that. Um ... why? I see no practical reason why the Export command should be prohibited from outputting an XCF file to disk when it already outputs every other image format GIMP has any support for.

I know it doesn't make much sense to "export to XCF", but allowing to store XCF from the export command would probably terminate this discussion. People who don't like the separation between save and export could simply change the shortcut from CTRL+E to CTRL+S and have the old behaivor back... Of course with no warnings about potentially destructive consequences when a layered file is saved to a single-layer format, for instance, but in that case it would be their call.

It's a really small compromise, people who choose to use the existing workflow with save and export won't notice it.

Gez.