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file open and create

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file open and create Liam R E Quin 31 May 03:04
  file open and create Srihari Sriraman 31 May 04:31
   file open and create Liam R E Quin 31 May 05:02
    file open and create Srihari Sriraman 31 May 06:21
  file open and create peter sikking 31 May 07:31
   file open and create Srihari Sriraman 31 May 08:52
    file open and create peter sikking 31 May 09:01
    file open and create Alexandre Prokoudine 31 May 13:33
   file open and create Guillermo Espertino (Gez) 31 May 13:14
    file open and create peter sikking 31 May 14:07
  file open and create Christopher Curtis 31 May 15:40
  file open and create Kevin Cozens 01 Jun 15:08
   file open and create Srihari Sriraman 01 Jun 16:52
    file open and create Kevin Cozens 01 Jun 18:13
   file open and create Liam R E Quin 02 Jun 02:26
Liam R E Quin
2012-05-31 03:04:33 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now) but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to Open File / Scan / Screenshot / Web page maybe with a checkbox, "open as layers inside the active image" instead of file->open as layers.

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

Liam

Srihari Sriraman
2012-05-31 04:31:36 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

IMHO a tabbed interface would be add to the confusion. Open as Layers is a powerful and frequent user scenario. Ctrl+O is something everyone is used to, and its easy to catch the Ctrl+Alt+O behaviour.

I think Open Location could be moved to Create>From URI along with Create>From Clipboard. Then we would have only 2 open dialogs, which is quite clear.

Another thought could be moving the first half of File>Create [Clipboard, Screenshot] etc somewhere else. Since these don't really 'create' something, in contrast with the rest of File>Create [Buttons, logos, etc].

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now) but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to Open File / Scan / Screenshot / Web page maybe with a checkbox, "open as layers inside the active image" instead of file->open as layers.

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

Liam

-- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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Liam R E Quin
2012-05-31 05:02:43 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 10:01 +0530, Srihari Sriraman wrote:

IMHO a tabbed interface would be add to the confusion.

You're probably right, the idea is try to simplify.

Open as Layers is a powerful and frequent user scenario.

Yes, I use it a lot. Not suggesting removing it, only moving it, as it's really an option on file->open. Which should be file->import: compromising the metaphor for ease of use indicates the metaphor isn't right.

Ctrl+O is something everyone is used to, and its easy to catch the Ctrl+Alt+O behaviour.

Actually I'd never noticed it had that shortcut. But it still could - the only difference would be the state of the checkbox - without a separate menu item.

I think Open Location could be moved to Create>From URI along with Create>From Clipboard. Then we would have only 2 open dialogs, which is quite clear.

So we'd have Create->From URI next to Create->From Webpage???

Another thought could be moving the first half of File>Create [Clipboard, Screenshot] etc somewhere else. Since these don't really 'create' something, in contrast with the rest of File>Create [Buttons, logos, etc].

I have under File->Create
from clipboard
from webpage
screenshot
xsane device dialog
xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
xsane v4l:'dev'video0

Sometimes I get epson expression 1000 XL in there too.

In every other program scanning is under file->acquire, which is badly named but at least predictable. But all I really care about is having something predictable, where I can look at the menu and guess what things do. Having file->open and fil->create is confusing and so is having both open location and open webpage.

So I thought I'd try & start a conversation about it :)

Liam

Srihari Sriraman
2012-05-31 06:21:39 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

But it still could -
the only difference would be the state of the checkbox - without a separate menu item.

You mean bringing up the open dialog with 'as layers' checked with a different shortcut?
It seems unorthodox, but maybe worth a try.

So we'd have Create->From URI next to Create->From Webpage???

I don't seem to have the Create>From Webpage. Its a plug-in? File->Create makes sense for Buttons and Logos, but not for URI, clipboard, screenshot, scan etc.
Can these be united in one category for the menu?

But all I really care about is having

something predictable, where I can look at the menu and guess what things do

I can relate to this. Perhaps you should use Tito ;)

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 10:01 +0530, Srihari Sriraman wrote:

IMHO a tabbed interface would be add to the confusion.

You're probably right, the idea is try to simplify.

Open as Layers is a powerful and frequent user scenario.

Yes, I use it a lot. Not suggesting removing it, only moving it, as it's really an option on file->open. Which should be file->import: compromising the metaphor for ease of use indicates the metaphor isn't right.

Ctrl+O is something everyone is used to, and its easy to catch the Ctrl+Alt+O behaviour.

Actually I'd never noticed it had that shortcut. But it still could - the only difference would be the state of the checkbox - without a separate menu item.

I think Open Location could be moved to Create>From URI along with Create>From Clipboard. Then we would have only 2 open dialogs, which is quite clear.

So we'd have Create->From URI next to Create->From Webpage???

Another thought could be moving the first half of File>Create [Clipboard, Screenshot] etc somewhere else. Since these don't really 'create' something, in contrast with the rest of File>Create [Buttons, logos,

etc].

I have under File->Create from clipboard
from webpage
screenshot
xsane device dialog
xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
xsane v4l:'dev'video0

Sometimes I get epson expression 1000 XL in there too.

In every other program scanning is under file->acquire, which is badly named but at least predictable. But all I really care about is having something predictable, where I can look at the menu and guess what things do. Having file->open and fil->create is confusing and so is having both open location and open webpage.

So I thought I'd try & start a conversation about it :)

Liam

-- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

peter sikking
2012-05-31 07:31:53 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

Liam R E Quin wrote:

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

File->Create is not related at all to File->Open.

it is related to File->New.

it is New with the size (and maybe other) parameters set, and the specified content (which is always _not_ a file) in the first layer.

I maintain it is very important to have a direct menu item to do:

File->Create
from clipboard
from webpage
screenshot
xsane device dialog
xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
xsane v4l:'dev'video0

with shortcuts (for the stable items I guess) being assignable and no penalty of dialogs (if possible).

we can discuss again how Create was named (I was involved, so it ain't half bad); it was to not to have New... and under it New > (with a submenu).

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

Srihari Sriraman
2012-05-31 08:52:32 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

How about:

*Import from*
URI
clipboard
webpage
xsane device dialog
xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
xsane v4l:'dev'video0

and

*Create* Buttons
Logos
Pattern

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:01 PM, peter sikking wrote:

Liam R E Quin wrote:

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

File->Create is not related at all to File->Open.

it is related to File->New.

it is New with the size (and maybe other) parameters set, and the specified content (which is always _not_ a file) in the first layer.

I maintain it is very important to have a direct menu item to do:

File->Create
from clipboard
from webpage
screenshot
xsane device dialog
xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
xsane v4l:'dev'video0

with shortcuts (for the stable items I guess) being assignable and no penalty of dialogs (if possible).

we can discuss again how Create was named (I was involved, so it ain't half bad); it was to not to have New... and under it New > (with a submenu).

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

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peter sikking
2012-05-31 09:01:23 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

Srihari Sriraman wrote:

How about:

Import from
URI
clipboard
webpage
xsane device dialog
xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
xsane v4l:'dev'video0

and

Create Buttons
Logos
Pattern

the word Import is, again, related to Open, and that is exactly not how it works (for users, mind).

so this should not be communicated.

always, always, always the word New needs to be there, or to be implied (like it is with Create).

File->Create is not related at all to File->Open.

it is related to File->New.

it is New with the size (and maybe other) parameters set, and the specified content (which is always _not_ a file) in the first layer.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

Guillermo Espertino (Gez)
2012-05-31 13:14:32 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

El 31/05/12 04:31, peter sikking escribi:

we can discuss again how Create was named (I was involved, so it ain't half bad); it was to not to have New... and under it New > (with a submenu).

What about "File > New from... > Submenu"

Gez

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Alexandre Prokoudine
2012-05-31 13:33:03 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Srihari Sriraman wrote:

How about:

Create
Buttons
Logos
Pattern

I just want to note that most of those scripts will be gone in 2.10.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

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peter sikking
2012-05-31 14:07:14 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

El 31/05/12 04:31, peter sikking escribi:

we can discuss again how Create was named (I was involved, so it ain't half bad); it was to not to have New... and under it New > (with a submenu).

What about "File > New from... > Submenu"

well, the ellipsis is forbidden for a menu item that just shows a sub menu (it is the law, and they are right, I say).

then this has to be looked at always with the submenu next to it:

from clipboard
from webpage
screenshot
xsane device dialog
xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
xsane v4l:'dev'video0

you see that the from is in the submenu to have flexibility whether something is created from a resource that is not an image file (clipboard, webpage) or by initiating a capture (screenshot, scan).

a more correct submenu would be:

from clipboard from webpage
screenshot
scan--xsane device dialog
scan--xsane epkowa:usb:003:002
scan--xsane v4l:'dev'video0

(the -- being an am dash, but this is monospace email.

but this discussion fragmentation takes the attention from another point Liam made:

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

ah, the difference between:
file->create->from webpage and File->Open Location

same kind of confusion, no> between an open (location) from an URI which opens/imports image files, and a new file with a rendering (from webpage, a non image file).

is the root of all this evil for Laim that Create does not express New file enough?

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

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Christopher Curtis
2012-05-31 15:40:39 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now) but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to

We had a similar discussion back in August 2010.

VLC uses a tabbed interface for "Open" ( http://www.gnu.org/fry/happy-birthday-to-gnu-sfd-vlc.html) and while it works, I'm not sure it would be simplifying.

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 10:07 AM, peter sikking wrote:

is the root of all this evil for Laim that Create does not

express New file enough?

For me, the problem is that "Create > Screenshot" and "Create > From Clipboard" make no sense. It is not that "Create" doesn't express "New", it's that "Create" expresses an action that is going to start with Nothing and then Invent Something. "Paste" and "Scan" do not fit this role.

My suggestion from back then still seems reasonable to me:

File -v- New ->
From Template... [Ctrl+N]
From Clipboard [Shift+Ctrl+V] Scanned Image...
Screenshot...
Create ->
Buttons ->
[etc]

Chris

Kevin Cozens
2012-06-01 15:08:21 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

On 12-05-30 11:04 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now) but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to Open File / Scan / Screenshot / Web page

[snip]

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

There shouldn't be too much confusion. File->Open should be for opening a file available locally to the computer (on the harddrive, memory stick, or network drive). File->Create is usedh b to create a new image (by running a plug-in) after setting some parameters.

What that leaves is things like creating images from a Screenshot, external web page, camera, or scanner. These options are most commonly found in programs under an File->Acquire menu entry.

Srihari Sriraman
2012-06-01 16:52:00 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

What that leaves is things like creating images from a Screenshot, external web page, camera, or scanner.

This is an observation I think most of us have made. Only the correct name for a sub-menu is under question IMHO.

Both *Acquire* and *Import *don't convey *New.* I second *New From *as suggested by Gez.

With the removal of most create-scripts in 2.10 as Alexandre said, *Create*need/may not exist anymore.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote:

On 12-05-30 11:04 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

What if there was only File->Open and you got a file chooser (as now) but with a tabbed interface (or buttons) to get to Open File / Scan / Screenshot / Web page

[snip]

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create

confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

There shouldn't be too much confusion. File->Open should be for opening a file available locally to the computer (on the harddrive, memory stick, or network drive). File->Create is usedh b to create a new image (by running a plug-in) after setting some parameters.

What that leaves is things like creating images from a Screenshot, external web page, camera, or scanner. These options are most commonly found in programs under an File->Acquire menu entry.

-- Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include | --Chris Hardwick

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Kevin Cozens
2012-06-01 18:13:47 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

On 12-06-01 12:52 PM, Srihari Sriraman wrote:

Only the correct name for a sub-menu is under question IMHO.

Both *Acquire* and *Import *don't convey *New.* I second *New From *as suggested by Gez.

GIMP could try and start a new trend but I think that most of its users (even the ones that are casual users of GIMP) would recognize the Acquire menu as it is used in other programs to get images from the external sources I mentioned in a previous email.

With the removal of most create-scripts in 2.10 as Alexandre said, *Create*need/may not exist anymore.

A lot of the scripts located under Create would not be missed by many. The most useful "Create" entry (or the one people get pointed to often when asked how to make scripts along a curve) Text Circle. Not sure where it would wind up if there was no Create any more unless it was moved to a "New From" menu with Screenshot and Scanner but it could make that sub-menu messy unless the script based "New From" entries had a separator line before the script based entries.

Liam R E Quin
2012-06-02 02:26:57 UTC (about 2 years ago)

file open and create

On Fri, 2012-06-01 at 11:08 -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:

On 12-05-30 11:04 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

[...]

Goal: I'm sure I'm not alone in finding file->open and file->create confusing, along with file->create->from webpage being different from File->Open Location, both of which take a URI... it's a mess.

There shouldn't be too much confusion.

Actually I meant File->New and File->Create but got confused :)