Sent: 2012-01-27 03:19:49 UTC (4 months ago)

From: Alexandre Prokoudine

image modes and indications

permalink

Hi,

I've just noticed yet another forum thread where someone asks a
question in the lines of "why does it not work?" and gets a reply
"image / mode / rgb".

It pops up so frequentrly that maybe we need some sort of a clever
notification/indication throughout the application about such things?
Not sure how it's going to make sense in GEGL-based GIMP where there
will be no indexed mode, though.

That, however, raises another question: we currently rely a lot on the
status bar and the sidebar for various hints (e.g. "this rectangular
selection you are making is that wide and that high" or "pick the
original sample for the clone tool, stupid"). The problem is: if we
are targeting professionals, then we are targeting people with large
displays. Judging by my own experience, the last thing you want to do
on with regards to a 24" is losing focus on canvas and making your
eyes travel up/down and sideways.

Earlier in this dev cycle mitch introduced a new on-canvas indicator
for transformation tools which is an improvement at cost of "friggin
stop that operation" button functionality. But do we have a grand
UI/UX plan and on that and the misterious "big picture" of what we
intend to do?

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org

Sent: 2012-01-27 05:00:42 UTC (4 months ago)

From: c55 inator

image modes and indications

permalink

Error messages and warnings in the status bar are incredibly easy to
ignore... I would suggest something like pixelmator [screen
capture],
which displays overlays on the canvas [here shown with keyboard shortcuts,
but the same model can be applied to other notifications]. Displaying
information with on-canvas pop-ups like this works well in my experience,
as they don't waste any screen space while being there when needed. Example
of a pop-up used for dimensions .

Just throwing that out there as a possible method I've seen used to solve
the aforementioned problems. Thoughts?

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've just noticed yet another forum thread where someone asks a
> question in the lines of "why does it not work?" and gets a reply
> "image / mode / rgb".
>
> It pops up so frequentrly that maybe we need some sort of a clever
> notification/indication throughout the application about such things?
> Not sure how it's going to make sense in GEGL-based GIMP where there
> will be no indexed mode, though.
>
> That, however, raises another question: we currently rely a lot on the
> status bar and the sidebar for various hints (e.g. "this rectangular
> selection you are making is that wide and that high" or "pick the
> original sample for the clone tool, stupid"). The problem is: if we
> are targeting professionals, then we are targeting people with large
> displays. Judging by my own experience, the last thing you want to do
> on with regards to a 24" is losing focus on canvas and making your
> eyes travel up/down and sideways.
>
> Earlier in this dev cycle mitch introduced a new on-canvas indicator
> for transformation tools which is an improvement at cost of "friggin
> stop that operation" button functionality. But do we have a grand
> UI/UX plan and on that and the misterious "big picture" of what we
> intend to do?
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>

Sent: 2012-01-27 05:48:24 UTC (4 months ago)

From: David Gowers (kampu)

image modes and indications

permalink

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 3:30 PM, c55 inator wrote:

> Error messages and warnings in the status bar are incredibly easy to
> ignore... I would suggest something like pixelmator [screen capture],
> which displays overlays on the canvas [here shown with keyboard shortcuts,
> but the same model can be applied to other notifications]. Displaying
> information with on-canvas pop-ups like this works well in my experience,
> as they don't waste any screen space while being there when needed. Example
> of a pop-up used for dimensions .
>
>
I'm in favor of this general model. MyPaint has recently got canvas
overlays, and they're, so far, used to display zoom level changes. I find
them both very readable, noticable, and also non-obtrusive. I think a lot
of the instructions and information we currently put in the status bar
could be usefully moved to an overlay -- tool usage instructions are a
prime example, look at the paths tool for an example of something that'll
really benefit hugely; and 'wrong mode' info is something I have to deal
with a fair bit, it would also be good there.

One other thing is, if we are going to be informing the user that the image
mode is wrong, we should offer them a chance to easily correct it.

Sent: 2012-01-27 07:01:10 UTC (4 months ago)

From: Martin Nordholts

image modes and indications

permalink

2012/1/27 Alexandre Prokoudine :
> Hi,
>
> I've just noticed yet another forum thread where someone asks a
> question in the lines of "why does it not work?" and gets a reply
> "image / mode / rgb".
>
> It pops up so frequentrly that maybe we need some sort of a clever
> notification/indication throughout the application about such things?
> Not sure how it's going to make sense in GEGL-based GIMP where there
> will be no indexed mode, though.

The proper solution to this problem is _not_ to have an indicator of
the current image mode, but to get rid of the concept of image mode
altogether. Images shall always be composed in 32-bit floating point
RGBA and then have suitable filters and export mechanisms to deal with
grayscale and indexed images.

/ Martin

My GIMP Blog:
http://www.chromecode.com/
"Single-window mode feature complete"

Sent: 2012-01-27 09:16:30 UTC (4 months ago)

From: Alexandre Prokoudine

image modes and indications

permalink

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Martin Nordholts wrote:

> The proper solution to this problem is _not_ to have an indicator of
> the current image mode,

...which I didn't even suggest :)

> but to get rid of the concept of image mode altogether.

Completely agreed

> Images shall always be composed in 32-bit floating point
> RGBA and then have suitable filters and export mechanisms to deal with
> grayscale and indexed images.

Which, however, isn't the main point of my mail :)

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org

Sent: 2012-01-27 11:59:28 UTC (4 months ago)

From: Bogdan Szczurek

image modes and indications

permalink

W dniu 12-01-27 10:16, Alexandre Prokoudine pisze:
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Martin Nordholts wrote:
>
>> The proper solution to this problem is _not_ to have an indicator of
>> the current image mode,
>
> ...which I didn't even suggest :)
>
>> but to get rid of the concept of image mode altogether.
>
> Completely agreed

I disagree

Sent: 2012-01-27 12:06:22 UTC (4 months ago)

From: Bogdan Szczurek

image modes and indications

permalink

> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 3:30 PM, c55 inator > wrote:
>
> Error messages and warnings in the status bar are incredibly easy to
> ignore... I would suggest something like pixelmator [screen capture]
> , which displays overlays on the
> canvas [here shown with keyboard shortcuts, but the same model can
> be applied to other notifications]. Displaying information with
> on-canvas pop-ups like this works well in my experience, as they
> don't waste any screen space while being there when needed. Example
> of a pop-up used for dimensions .
>
>
> I'm in favor of this general model. MyPaint has recently got canvas
> overlays, and they're, so far, used to display zoom level changes. I
> find them both very readable, noticable, and also non-obtrusive. I think
> a lot of the instructions and information we currently put in the status
> bar could be usefully moved to an overlay -- tool usage instructions are
> a prime example, look at the paths tool for an example of something
> that'll really benefit hugely; and 'wrong mode' info is something I have
> to deal with a fair bit, it would also be good there.
>
> One other thing is, if we are going to be informing the user that the
> image mode is wrong, we should offer them a chance to easily correct it.

I generally agree with idea of "on canvas" indicators with one
objection: they have to be easy to hide temporarily during performed
operation. My reason is that when displayed, indicators, are "becoming a
part of design" thus "disturbing it" and in some cases forcing designer
to readjust changes made only a seconds ago because
"numbers/guides/handles" distorted his/her judgement when to stop.

My best!
thebodzio

Sent: 2012-01-27 14:27:50 UTC (4 months ago)

From: c55 inator

image modes and indications

permalink

>
> they have to be easy to hide temporarily during performed operation. My
> reason is that when displayed, indicators, are "becoming a part of design"
> thus "disturbing it" and in some cases forcing designer to readjust changes
> made only a seconds ago because "numbers/guides/handles" distorted his/her
> judgement when to stop.

Definitely. There needs to be a way for designers to close or hide
displays when necessary. As I understand it, the escape key normally fills
this purpose (closing pop-ups), but we could also have another, more
visible, mouse-driven method, like a small close button on the display
itself. Another option is to only have the dialogs for tools [not the
notifications] only display on hover, or only when actively modifying
something [in the case of, say, the selection or crop tools]. That still
could prevent users from seeing certain parts of the canvas, but I think it
might be an improvement over always-displayed ones.

I hope, if we were to start using on-canvas displays for a lot of commands
[Not just notifications and dimensions, but also tool settings and the
like, the user would be able to set which commands should display pop-ups
at all, whether they should only appear on hover, and what information they
should display. That way, users who don't want a particular pop-up
wouldn't have to close it every time they ran the associated command.

http://cl.ly/2G3o0w3S0Y0B1I3R1q2S
http://cl.ly/3U2Z3u1q2p0E2w2n150l
http://cl.ly/1g0Q452q3f1A2f2i0r2z
Some quick mockups of how this could look in GIMP.

On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:06 AM, Bogdan Szczurek wrote:

>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 3:30 PM, c55 inator > > wrote:
>>
>> Error messages and warnings in the status bar are incredibly easy to
>> ignore... I would suggest something like pixelmator [screen capture]
>> , which displays overlays on the
>> canvas [here shown with keyboard shortcuts, but the same model can
>> be applied to other notifications]. Displaying information with
>> on-canvas pop-ups like this works well in my experience, as they
>> don't waste any screen space while being there when needed. Example
>> of a pop-up used for dimensions .
>>
>>
>> I'm in favor of this general model. MyPaint has recently got canvas
>> overlays, and they're, so far, used to display zoom level changes. I
>> find them both very readable, noticable, and also non-obtrusive. I think
>> a lot of the instructions and information we currently put in the status
>> bar could be usefully moved to an overlay -- tool usage instructions are
>> a prime example, look at the paths tool for an example of something
>> that'll really benefit hugely; and 'wrong mode' info is something I have
>> to deal with a fair bit, it would also be good there.
>>
>> One other thing is, if we are going to be informing the user that the
>> image mode is wrong, we should offer them a chance to easily correct it.
>
> I generally agree with idea of "on canvas" indicators with one objection:
they have to be easy to hide temporarily during performed operation. My
reason is that when displayed, indicators, are "becoming a part of design"
thus "disturbing it" and in some cases forcing designer to readjust changes
made only a seconds ago because "numbers/guides/handles" distorted his/her
judgement when to stop.
>
> My best!
> thebodzio
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-developer-list mailing list
> gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list

Sent: 2012-01-27 21:56:47 UTC (4 months ago)

From: Nathan Summers

image modes and indications

permalink

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Bogdan Szczurek wrote:

> I think using 32 bit fp for all images is trying to make things appear
> simpler than they really are and it'll only make them more complicated.

I have to agree, especially because people generally aren't targeting
32-bit floating point formats anyway.

Rockwalrus